Concluding the Doremi Fiasco
EDIT 2
I think my 5 seconds of Internet fame infamy just ended! Tj han, never missing an opportunity to get back at me for posting his pictures on my blog, has taken to calling me “Drama Queen” now. :P
I enjoyed the discussion (at least with some of you) while it lasted, here are my final words on this topic. Out of all the insults I’ve been getting, I particularly like Valkyrie’s one because he sounded seriously angry, possibly more than I was. I kid, I kid.
END EDIT
Wow, that was certainly a lot more responses than I had anticipated. I think I’ll do a little conclusion here, something I’ve not felt the need to do for my rants since the anti-lolicon incident.
First of all, I admit that I was harsh, perhaps more than what Doremi deserves. I apologize for calling the translator, Ladholyman, a liar. I seldom watch anything from Doremi and I did not know that the translation was based on Chinese subs. In that sense, Ladholyman probably did his job as a translator by translating what the Chinese subs said. The Chinese translator was the one lying. That’s a mistake on my part.
However, I think this release speaks volume about the entire group and its operating mindset. When I translate something I love passionately, I do my best to make sure that it is as accurate as I can possibly make it. If my translations do not at least reproduce the general meaning of the orignial works, then what value do they serve for others? At least parody subs label themselves as such and have some entertainment values.
Numerous lines in the DVD Special translations made absolutely no sense. You would’ve noticed that, as some comment posters did, without knowing a single word of Japanese. What were the rest of the Doremi team thinking when they timed/edited/QC’ed the release?
What does that say about Doremi’s intentions when it produces fansubs? Assuming that I knew no Japanese at all, I would still prefer to watch an episode raw, or indeed not to watch it at all, then to be given a completely wrong translation. Bad translations would’ve destroyed my first impression of a series. Clearly this is not what fansubbing was supposed to achieve when we fansubbers claim to be spreading the love for anime.
You can see now why I am very, very unhappy with the way fansubbing is being conducted right now. Like what I’ve said in my Bandai rant, I think fansubs are just not doing what they claim to do.
Doremi’s release of the DVD Special really pushed me over the top and perhaps I said too much due to some of my past experiences which Doremi is not responsible for. But really, what Doremi is doing is no different from what AnimeJunkies did. Doremi, as shown by their quick response to this incident, is a nicer group on the whole, but that doesn’t make what it does any better for the community than what AJ did.
The bottom line is, please get some Japanese speakers. Call me elitist or anything, but I think that, as a fansub group of Japanese anime, it makes a lot of sense to have Japanese speakers on the team. Don’t you?
And that concludes yet another internet fansubbing drama. Please check back next time.
EDITED: And here’s my reply to Ladholyman’s post on Doremi’s official site just so you know it was really me:
Hehe. I don’t hate you personally since, as you said, I don’t know you at all. I’m just insulting people that I don’t know anoymously on the Internet like I always do.
I admit that I didn’t know that you translated from Chinese. I also don’t watch Doremi releases in general. I made a mistake assuming that you were the translator because the credit said so.
If I knew that you were not a Japanese translator, I would have targeted the insults at Doremi instead of you. I apologize for making the whole rant sound like an attack on you because I assumed that you were the one who did the translation.
But dammit, that’s what you wrote in the credits. You took credit for it and I gave the due “credit” as such. The credits didn’t say “Original Translation by [Chinese sub group]“, in which case I would’ve given due “credit” to them too.
Well, I know I don’t sound a bit sincere, but I really do feel sorry for those words that were targeted at you specifically.
Anyway, hope you don’t place so much trust in Chinese translations next time. On my part, I’ll try not to go postal so easily. :P
September 1st, 2006 at 12:12 am
exalt dragon, unfortunately it’s _you_ who doesn’t get it, Kondra is right. DM claimed to know what japanese-unsavvy speakers think.
> Assuming that I knew no Japanese at all, I would still prefer to watch
> an episode raw, or indeed not to watch it at all, then to be given a
> completely wrong translation.
In other words, if you prefer to have it done by your example:
DM-san: I claim that YOU non-japanese-speakers prefer raws over poor subs
Kondra-san: Eh? Absolutely not, I’m a non-japanese-speaker and I don’t. Also, look at the download numbers, they disprove your theory.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:28 am
I wasn’t born Japanese-speaking. I didn’t know Japanese when I started watching anime. I do know what I thought back then and I still think the same way now.
When I was Japanese-unsavvy, I prefered not watching a series at all, than to watch a misleadingly subtitled version and receive a wrong impression of the show.
But of course I didn’t know that I had misunderstood so many shows until two years later. No thanks to AJ.
Maybe I’m mistaken and most people don’t care if the subtitles really tell them what’s happening, as long as they can figure out the story eventually.
But really, I didn’t think that way and I didn’t know anyone (including my Japanese-unsavvy friends) who did, until today (or perhaps yesterday). Guess I learnt something new.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:53 am
oh well, errors are bound to happen. incidentally yesterday, i was watching strawberry panic 20 and i’ve noticed one wrong translated part. instead of something like tickle(or some meaning like that) it got ‘translated’ to scared.
or, of course, my hearing is way off. either way, its not a major damage like the otome thing, its just something with minor importance when u count the whole ep.
displeased? nah, i just laughed bcos it remembered me of the past events(aka fansubing dorama). as for the whole translation… j>c>e . they’re doing a great job. u should see the portuguese subs from j>e>p.
most of them are always missing the target on translations.
ok, we do get less flaws with j>e translations but where are those freaking translators?(if u dont know, go read the last post/comments) so fans have to work the other way around. it might not be as accurate as a direct translation, but still the share reaches its final destination right? as long as the story isnt compromised its way better than watching raws for a majority of the fanbase(i’ve other friends who are clueless about japanese).
imho its better to know the process which the translation was based, since sometimes its more difficult than the direct trans. , otherwise, you will be criticizing with biased information. >> making things start to look like a dorama =p
—–(big rant isn’t it?)
after reading everything… u could call that my understanding on what happened. now its past. the effect? might be not that great with the direct parts involved but caused a nice effect within the community(guessing that lots of ppl have read those posts) making them remember that lots of fansubs are declining on the matter of translation fidelity.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:51 am
First of all, this is my blog. I’m not supposed to be objective about it.
“This is my blog,” lol. I thanks both you and Mr. Lawson for the brief amusement.
September 1st, 2006 at 7:06 pm
Ladholyman, Dont take it too heart too much k? I mean just learn that you should check first b4 releasing. I am a big keroro fan and i really apprieciate Doremi for fansubbing keroro so passionately as it has already about 124 eps so far so er..ya u guys are halfway there and please keep up the good work doremi ^^.
Lastly let me add a little more spice to this thread since we are on this issue, There’s a very obvious translation error in the lastest episode 199 of Naruto subbed by “DB” Can you guys find it? ^_^. Translators becareful please and dont stop fansubbing! >_>
September 1st, 2006 at 7:08 pm
WHAT THE HELL? Y does my last comment keep getting deleted? Sorry DM >__” Post. What I was trying to say is,Really appreciate your efforts even though i have the ability to watch raws! 本当に感謝しますね！
September 3rd, 2006 at 8:37 am
Hi,
I’d like to apologize (though others probably have before me) for this whole fiasco again. I do TC and editing for doremi, and, well, in preparing for college I didn’t get v1 done in a timely manner… and it somehow rolled on regardless >.
September 3rd, 2006 at 9:59 pm
[When I was Japanese-unsavvy, I prefered not watching a series at all, than to watch a misleadingly subtitled version and receive a wrong impression of the show.]
So how’d you know the series was “misleadingly subtitled” without understanding japanese?
I mean, there’s a difference betwenn watching an anime and looking at teh pretty pictures.
Because if you don’t understand japanese, well you DON’T UNDERSTAND what they are saying. Just try it out, rent a DVD or download a movie in a language you don’t speak. Try a bollywood movie for some indian pwnage for example (^_0)
September 3rd, 2006 at 10:21 pm
Darkhenrahl:
Ah, but that’s exactly my point. I seldom got to make the choice myself even though I wanted to. Most of the time, I didn’t know that they were misleadingly subtitled and I watched them. Ignorance is bliss until you find out the truth.
How can fansub watchers know that the translation is bad without knowing Japanese themselves? They can’t! Isn’t it kind of unfair for speed subbers to exploit that?
It’s like giving expired food to a person who can’t taste. As long as he thinks it’s good, he’ll be thankful for it. Hell, I thought AJ was one of the best groups ever when I started out. If I were given the choice, I would rather not eat anything at all. :)
September 4th, 2006 at 12:20 am
I am the timer/encoder of a new group. Obviously, I can’t judge Japanese/English translations.
For curiosity, I’ve downloaded the Chinese subs and comparing it with the screenshots. What I see is:
- most of them are translated correctly, in the CE sense
- one line is edited
- 2 places are fixed
So the quality actually increased in the C-E translations! Usually, the episodes that I get from Doremi seems good enough. I would say it is an unusual bad luck
/me go back for timing or else I may get fired.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:28 pm
Learn Nihongo
Download Raws
September 7th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
@Mentar
OK, It is “_you_” who doesn’t get it.
Everything you are saying is probably true, but you are missing the point: you can’t read someone’s mind.
VERYVERY simply for your poor comphrehension
Kondra: You claim that you thought X. That is rubbish
Me: How do you know that he didn’t think X?
Now put X=blah blah preference blah blah.
Get it? If you don’t, read it again, in it’s full context.
September 13th, 2006 at 6:37 pm
Look man, we all know chinese subs - teh suxxor. One must only watch HK DVDs to see that. I mean come on, i think the tenjou tenge ones had shin’s name translate out as ping.
Also, recalling a v2? WTF is that?! its free for fuck’s sake. We don’t get a fucking refund or shit. Just a freaking dent in our bandwidth meter.
My point is, ur not a fansub group without a QC who knows some japanese. not just some moonspeak bum who cant read hiragana and katakana and at least 500-600 kanji.
Hmph!
September 14th, 2006 at 9:15 am
Please don’t make such a generalization. You may have had bad experiences with HK DVDs, but official R3 DVDs are decently great. If you don’t have bandwidth to download a 50 MB special, then ask a good buddy of yours. And if I’m just a bum to you, then you’re free to not download anything from us. It’s your call totally.
September 14th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
# Sugiura Midori United States says:
August 30th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
I have been enjoying Doremi sub’s (Strawberry Panic and Otome Spcials) for a while now, and compared to a lot of other groups out there.. well, it’s not bad at all, and unlike these new groups I’ve seen, they don’t fuck up the typesetting (which matters to me cuz I do that, but obviously not others).. and I haven’t seen many mistakes in the whole TL department.. but then I only know simple Japanese.. (three semesters in college really wasn’t worth jack.)
The whole hype on people making a new fansub group just so they can do something they think is better than some other group, or so they can do it faster… is all a crock of shit, and educated leecher out there will download the group they feel does the best overall job. There have also been the few groups out there a friend or two of mine tried to start, and they always make the same fatal flaw… finding people for all positions EXCEPT the J-E TL .. why is that? because it’s hard as fuck to find someone that has so little of a life outside of college/work/relationships. All three of these groups that friends tried to start failed, and I’m sure more like it happen all the time.
I’ve heard plenty of stories about fake TL’s that can get away with stuff, hell I could prolly do it if I felt like being a total asshole to the fansub community, but this is why all groups need TL Checkers and QC’ers, prevent the whole fucking v2, v3 crap in the first place. Is it really that hard to put in the extra 30 minutes to write down all the massive shit that’s wrong with an ep, pass it along, they fix it, have someone else check it, and once it passes, release? Seems to be that way lately, and barring speed subs, there are really not that many good groups out there any more.. they’re either really fast cuz they want leecher count and nothing more, or really slow cuz they take too much time on stuff (I know slow, I’m in Nanashi and Bakakozou after all, we are the epitome of slow, and guess where all the eps are stuck at in both groups?! –You guessed it, QC… why the hell can’t people spend 30 minutes of their day to watch an anime.. they’d do it anyhow later…
nooneofconsequence mentions that you go buy DVD’s of the anime’s you like, that’s all fine and good if a good company does the anime (just like how there are only a few truely good fansub groups, only a few licensing companies exist too)… I bought the Girls Bravo DVD’s at the last AX, and as I sat there watching them on my laptop, I could just start to count errors (and silverfire in the same hotel room was also correcting stuff and he knows infinitly more japanese than I) Not even companies that supposedly spend time and money on this stuff bother to give it their all!!! It is becomming more and more apparent that everyone would be better off learning Japanese themselves if they want to get the full quality of anime.
Another thing that angers me about companies releasing DVD’s (and why fansubs are so much better) is the sever lack of either, or both, pronunciation of names, places, titles, etc.. as well as the lack of typesetting signs, letters, you name it. After sitting in on the Bandai panel for Eureka seveN, it was quite apparent at how they don’t bother to pronounce anything properly (just listen to how they fuck up saying “eureka”) also various members from Nanashi have watched the Cartoon Network episodes and only come back to IRC to report the countless fuckups in translation or pronunciation.
[/rant]
And main lesson, You can’t trust anyone but yourself, as DM proved here. So go learn Japanese if you care, be ignorant if you don’t. I personally like challenging myself to watch the newest RAW of Bleach just to see what % of the ep I understand.
wow
that was about the most intelligent thing said there….
im quite disappointed in these two pages.. and frankly im glad yer not fansubbing any more.
i put up for one of the bots for doremi
reason: i luv the guys and they work their asses off
not just to speedsub
but to do the best job of it as they can.
sure no one’s perfect but dammit they do produce and they typically do a good job. and yes, i even distro when i dont like what is on the menu ~_~
now with that concept in hand, go do something useful like find someone who knows japanese fluently and is willing to give up 4-6 hrs per week per ep to tl // check everything
go
go
gogogo
bitch ~_~
August 29th, 2007 at 5:28 am
My my, looks like Lad wasn’t particularly happy :P
That DMs so-called “troll” looks like some of my kenichi TLCs (back when I was still doing them - before I got fed up with the sh***), so nothing new here. What do you expect when you TL jpn-chn-eng…
Yes, we should ask wtf the editor and QC were thinking and why didn’t they ask help from some real jpn TL when the lines obviously didn’t make any sense. I suppose that’s Doremi’s “let’s just release something” -attitude.
Now, I know a lot of people go with this “crappy subs are better than no subs at all”, but… well… I was watching raws way before I knew any japanese beyond sayonara and arigatou (and was baffled by the romanization differences). It’s surprising how much you can understand just watching/listening to the emotions (points for the japanese seiyuu) . After 2 years of more or less intensive anime watching, I had picked up a way bigger vocabulary than a friend who was then taking his 3rd japanese course at his uni - and a very rudimentary understanding of the jp grammatic. Then I kinda started feeling it’s ridiculous to be able to understand the spoken language but still not be able to read it so I tackled that insane writing system of theirs, and.. well… here we are :P
Now, quite a number of you are prolly gonna argue that your average joe can’t do this. fuck them. Oh how I hated that nagging feeling “hey, that’s not quite right…” before I had reached the level where I could actually translate the line in question myself ;(
I still watch some fansubs… mainly because they are A) easier to find B) there’s still some series where my jp fails me (and some where I still prefer not understanding over reading some ***)
And guess why I’m such a strong proponent of softsubs.. yup. Because I can turn off the ¤#¤#%#%¤#&¤/#¤%¤%&#%¤#W¤#%¤&#¤%¤%/¤%¤# of a so-called TL.
Ah, that felt good. Ty, DM… for providing me my evening flame ;)
September 20th, 2007 at 4:32 am
Hey, it’s Suurorca. What’s up. Sorry you got fed up with Kenichi, it gets epic.
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January 9th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Yeah, TL errors abound everywhere in Doremi’s releases. Even Bamboo Blade I think (I’m not so proficient in Japanese so as to confirm that they were errors, anyhow I think so). No offence to Doremi, but they reeeeally need to get a J-E translator now….
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