Apocalypse now
Taken from RIUVA. So Odex has finally done it. Singapore’s anime community is doomed. Oh shit. So anyway some poor guy probably wet his pants after receiving this letter.
WTF zOMG H4X!
BTW the organization mentioned in the letter AVPAS (Anti-Piracy Association of Singapore) is similar to the RIAA/RIAS except that Odex appears to be the sole active member. The organization has obtained authorizations from various Japanese studios to represent their rights for all their copyrighted works, even those that are not licensed by Odex for distribution in Singapore. The full list of titles can be found on their website.
Read on for my thoughts.
That said, I am very, very curious as to how Odex, a private entity, managed to obtain personal data from the ISPs based on purely circumstantial evidences. As far as I can see from the AVPAS member list, there is zero indication that it is anything but a private organization. It is related to neither the police nor the relevant government agencies. Therefore, it is the anime equivalent of the RIAA.
However, RIAA, as mighty and powerful as it appears to be, is not able to obtain any personal information from American ISPs directly. It has to do it through the court. That means that it has to first start the legal procedures before the court issues a subpoena that forces the ISP to reveal the identity of the defender and summons the person to court. The defenders in these lawsuits are given the generic name “John Doe” because their names are undisclosed by their ISPs until after the court subpoena. In such cases, the first letter received by the poor sob should be from his own ISP informing him of the existence of such a subpoena for his identity.
The above letter is addressed to the person himself and was sent directly by Odex. This means that Odex, without first going through any legal proceedings, is able to obtain personal information directly from the ISPs using only the IP address. That is insane if you consider the amount of invasive power that has been put into the hands of private company and the potential for abuse by individuals with their personal agendas.
You know, there’s a certain someone whom I really hate on a certain forum. I will fake produce a record of his IP address illegally torrenting a picture that I once drew during a particularly boring physics lecture. I shall then e-mail this “proof” to Singnet and ask for this person’s home address. And if that doesn’t work, I’ll go spend a few bucks to register a company to make the request seem more legitimate…
Of course Odex is a legitimate company that is trying to protect its rights under the current intellectual property rights law (flawed as it may be). But my point is that if a private entity can obtain such information without the prior knowledge of the people involved and without the authority of the court, then what exactly in our legal system is protecting our privacy from abuse by some unscrupulous characters? And if such protection of personal privacy does indeed exist, what exactly allows Odex to bypass it?
Then again, I’m not well-versed with the local legal system. Maybe our privacy laws are really that screwed up. Oh well.
Read this excellent explanation of the “RIAA vs. John Doe” lawsuits, particularly the sections on “How the RIAA identifies the people they sue” and “The Lawsuit Begins”, and compare it to what Odex is apparently authorized to do. Doesn’t RIAA look like the better alternative?
So what are your remaining options for your weekly anime fix?
- Direct download sites
- Obscure Chinese Bittorrent trackers
- XDCC bots on IRC
- Download raws off Winny/Share
- Move to Japan
- Find a job at Odex
Alternatively, find a safer hobby like playing pirated computer games or serial jaywalking.
June 2nd, 2007 at 11:48 pm
@DM: Ah ok, that does sound like a good explanation of why things are the way they are…I guess proximity (in both distance and dvd region) to Japan has it’s advantages and disadvantages as well…
I forgot that manga is not a digital media, and thus requires quite a bit more money to replicate as compared to digital stuff like DVDs.
But what about CDs? Taiwan and China both have local “publishers” for Japanese CDs, at much lower prices than Japan. The quality is also (supposedly) bit-for-bit perfect when compared to the Japanese release. The CDs don’t seem to be inferior in any way, apart from a restriction that the CD is only for sale outside Japan.
One explanation I can give is that the releases are limited - only a small subset of CDs are authorized for “publishing” outside Japan. And these happen to be the more popular releases, where the potential market outweighs the number of CDs that might inevitably be imported on the sly into Japan.
Maybe anime releases too can have this restriction that they can only be sold out of Japan?
June 2nd, 2007 at 11:56 pm
(Note: there is more than one Anonymous poster around. *waves*)
Before I continue, I’d just like to say to the people who actually intend to write in to the Straits Times… You guys have the guts to do what I couldn’t.
But before going any further, it would help if we actually had hard evidence to show what’s wrong. For starters, the article - we have people from the focus group who’ve seen the episodes, and know that the article was incorrect (see DarkMirage’s comment on the video quality), so the least we could do is to let the Straits Times know that a mistake was made. (If they don’t apologise… well, it’s not like our press is really that “free” anyway.) If we need proof that some of Odex’s releases are crap/plagiarised, take screenshots/clips, put them on an online page, then publicise the link.
People can and will testify to/against anything, but hard evidence is a little harder to argue against.
@bakavic: Well, subbing was my “personal” problem, because I’m a bit of a grammar nazi, and I’m less concerned about other aspects as long as they aren’t _too_ bad. Since many others would have problems with sound/picture quality, delays in releases, etc., wouldn’t it be better to summarise everyone’s main issues with just a short sentence or two for each point? (Besides, not everyone who writes in will get published, so if anything gets through, it should cover as much ground as possible within the space given.)
My opinion is that if you can’t fit everything in, I’d say the most damning aspects to cover would be the essential aspects of any television/movie release: audio, video, subs, delays. Extras are nice, but are just that - extras.
P.S. It’s “holybell84″. *groan* He/She would be soooo insulted. =P
@bardsmanship: It’s a good point you’re making about the benchmark used, although the caveat is that fansub quality also varies, depending on the group subbing it and its philosophy (speed subs vs quality subs). And see DarkMirage’s comment for an explanation as to what was “lost in translation” in the article.
Heh, come to think about it, one major theme of the anti-piracy ads in movie theatres is that pirated clips have poorer audio, video, subtitling and overall quality. (To me, the infamous “Backstroke of the West” and LOTR subs come to mind, which are EXCELLENT, but for the wrong reasons entirely.) So when an Odex representative says that their focus group was unable to tell the difference between an Odex release and a “pirated” one… What kind of impression does that make? =P (In case you were wondering, DarkMirage, I saw your comment, but the image is still ironic.)
@dKiWi: I apologise if what I’m about to say may offend you… but THREATENING JOURNALISTS GETS YOU NOWHERE. We’re already on the moral low ground to begin with, our mitigating factor is that Odex is not “playing fair” ( which would be to establish a competitive standard of quality instead of using strong-arm tactics) or building rapport with the anime community, the article itself makes it seem as though the anime community is anti-IP, anarchic and unpatriotic (fine, fine, point conceded…), so the last thing we need is a “confirmation” that we’re Molotov Cocktail-wielding radicals.
The points are noted and are valid, but sometimes it’s the delivery that counts.
@DarkMirage: I see your points, but the trouble is that, now that the issue has made its way to the press and is _this_ close to actual legal action, the damage has been done. It’s going to be a long while before Odex/Fandom relations can get anywhere close to normal, and this isn’t helping the whole “reaching out to the fans” thing that is a major gripe.
June 2nd, 2007 at 11:56 pm
I’m surprised there isn’t a bigger outrage over the accusations of Odex stealing fansub translations. I mean its absolutely disgusting to think that they’re stealing fansubbers work and passing it as their own. And they’re claiming to fight piracy? I really wonder who’s the bigger pirate here, them or us?
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:05 am
@holybell84 : That’s the big problem. If u email u dun need use real name. And don’t forget even if your letter gets published it may be modified. Don’t tell me they wouldn’t modify it, that’s crap. Now wouldn’t that piss you off?
@bakavic : I’m a Military Policeman by vocation, and I prefer to take the hard approach. Also, my soul has actually been sucked out of me, and I’ll start finding it back when I ORD (8 more months ^^). And actually, the hard approach is the most effective if you rule out the emotional repercussions, which I can’t even detect faintly now.
Btw, I also “killed” this guy who insulted Lucky Star (because no one else said anything DAMNIT):
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=922344&postcount=1667
@DarkMirage: I think perhaps you should try writing to this Mr Chua HH. Writing to ODEX didn’t work. I doubt writing to the forum will work either. You’re probably the most knowledgeable and capable here, and could still be hiding info from even us. Sure, ODEX doesnt need us, but they CAN do better and make more money. And WE BENEFIT if they do better. $29.90 for 12 episodes on DVD is freaking cheap compared to the $108 dollars I’m paying for my 26 episodes of Azumanga Daioh.
I’d say quantity over quality, with at least some quality emails. That would be more effective.
Why will it be effective? He is the first guy entrusted to spearhead ODEX/AVPAS’ campaign into mainstream, and he probably thinks its an easy job.
Lets show him we anime fans are not simply appreciators of “cartoons”, so to speak. That we are truly passionate about our hobby. That we’ll not simply siam.
OT:
(And thx for taking the trouble to type dKiWi considering we are more or less strangers, and the letters in capital are actually my real initials so it isnt for fuck. I’ve known people better in other forums and they juz do Dkiwi or some other crap T_T)
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YorYor's ThoughtsJune 3rd, 2007 at 12:21 am
The Fine City, Mentality and Education…
Well, everyone (or almost everyone who has had some form of interaction with the newspaper and/or the anime industry) has heard about the ODEX/AVPAS shit that has been happening.
I do not want to touch on the right and wrong of things, since there are …
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:23 am
@Anon (the waving one): I agree that not all (if any) of the letters we sent in will be published. The idea behind trying to “spread out” the points between different letters is to show to the editors that we aren’t all just going round the same old points, but are actually giving them different views of the article. Also, this gives us the chance to emphasize more on what exactly we’re upset with, given that we can give each point room to breathe, instead of cramming them all into the 400-word limit.
I was hoping (maybe too much) that the editors will be able to see that there is some kind of big reaction to the article, and maybe a new article, taking points from all the letters, will be published. Of course, I see now that this might just be a big pipe dream ;)
About “windbell84″ and holybell84 - I deeply apologize to holybell84. It was an unfortunate mind burp ;) I know another blogger named windbell, and somehow I mixed the two of them up.
@Reks & Anon: Fan translations of anime can be counted as “derivative works” of the anime, and are thus already infringing copyright. As twisted as it may sound, perhaps they could use this to nullify the fansubber’s copyright on the translation, and give themselves the right to use it. I’m not sure if this is possible or not, but it is worth a thought.
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:28 am
Hi guys, I realised most of the activity/discussion is happening here.
Kudos to DM for providing so much information and being the starting base for this issue. For those who didn’t read my post in my own blog, here it is reproduced.
************************************************************
Well, everyone (or almost everyone who has had some form of interaction with the newspaper and/or the anime industry) has heard about the ODEX/AVPAS shit that has been happening.
I do not want to touch on the right and wrong of things, since there are 2 very differing views and whether 1 or the other, my opinion and stand of things would be wrong. Whatever it is, I offer one thought: nothing is EVER really right or wrong. The only ABSOLUTE wrong is the way we are hurting our living environment, and our remedial actions could very well be too little too late. But that’s another topic altogether. No one is always 100% right, just that a certain organisation in our little island wishes everyone else to think otherwise. (But of course, they are world class and always right.)
I’m disappointed to hear that all 17 of those who have been issued with the primary-school level lawyer’s letter to have chosen the easy way out. Well, that just became 17*3.5K=59.5K easy money for ODEX, and/or their lawyers. Not that the average family with no or little knowledge about the law can choose any other path to take.
However, I offer one interesting notion, for any future suspects. In this fine city, it is guilty until charged. I think this has become a dangerous mentality that everyone is guilty of. Perhaps it is time to change that, simply by challenging the nature of the evidence produced by ODEX.
The logs simply show an ATTEMPT to download the file. It does NOT equate to completing the download, nor being capable of playing back the download.
Unless ODEX can get the ISPs to reconstruct the packets and determine 100% that the suspect has completed the download, then it is more likely that the suspect indeed has the file. I say more likely because it may not have been. Say, first attempt to download starts, but computer crashes halfway through, resulting in a complete corruption of the file. Upon booting up, the BT software erroneously determines that the incomplete download is valid and resumes the second half. End result = corrupted file that can’t be read. Therefore, there must be evidence of the file residing on the suspect’s computer.
An analogy, however inappropriate it may sound, would be a murder determined to be by say a kitchen knife. Does that make EVERYONE in the island a suspect? Unless the murder weapon is found, the kitchen knife merely remains the most probably weapon.
Having identified the suspects, there must be evidence that can concretely trace and link the weapon to the suspect, such as a strand of hair, a fingerprint, or something containing the DNA. An eye-witness. Or lastly a confession.
In this case, if the act of downloading is even a crime, it should only be deemed completed if and when the file is 100% downloaded, and without errors, allowing it to be read back and be useful for its original purpose. So ODEX logs should only be considered as circumstantial evidence, and not DNA. DNA would be reconstruction of the packets into the file itself.
Final read for all interested should be the following:
COPYRIGHT ACT, DIVISION 2 — INFRINGEMENT OF COPYRIGHT IN WORKS
COPYRIGHT ACT, DIVISION 3 — ACTS NOT CONSTITUTING INFRINGEMENTS OF COPYRIGHT WORKS, SECTION 39 Back-up copy of computer program, etc
COPYRIGHT ACT, DIVISION 6 — INFRINGEMENT OF COPYRIGHT IN SUBJECT-MATTER OTHER THAN WORKS
In essence, it seems that it is only an infringement if one “without the licence of the owner of the copyright, (a) sells, lets for hire, or by way of trade offers or exposes for sale or hire, an article; or (b) by way of trade exhibits an article in public, where he knows, or ought reasonably to know, that the making of the article constituted an infringement of the copyright or, in the case of an imported article, the making of the article was carried out without the consent of the owner of the copyright.” and “the distribution of any articles, (a) for the purpose of trade; or (b) for any other purpose to an extent that affects prejudicially the owner of the copyright concerned, shall be taken to be the sale of those articles.”. Downloaders are not doing for sale or hire, so the only question should be the distributing part. So, it is NOT the act of downloading that is an infringement, it is the uploading (I know, some of you have already ascertained that).
So, ODEX’s letter is completely off-tangent and invalid.
The proof that they should and need to produce is a suspect uploading complete and 100% error-free files. So if I name a Word document the same name as one of the offending files, it is an infringement, since their evidence lists filenames?
I hope more educated individuals who read the above posts, who receive the same notice from ODEX make an educated decision - to contest or not to? We need someone to set the precedent. Whatever the outcome, be sure you will get known throughout the anime communities worldwide. And yes, ODEX and the little island’s reputation will continue going down the drain, despite the latter’s attempts to propel itself up. F1, casinos/integrated resorts and whatever not. I don’t even want to mention UNSW.
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:33 am
@2nd Anonymous: Point taken. So uh, don’t follow my style in that case. In fact everyone should just write THEIR OWN STYLE without discussing too much. I mean from the drafts I can see that all of you have your souls intact.
What I’m trying to prevent here is ODEX killing us and themselves. We want a win-win situation, not a lose-lose one. Even if ODEX survives, its STILL lose-lose…
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:40 am
I believe there is a little too much of us people putting down Odex from our perspectives, simply because we’re thinking from our point of view and our losses and not considering about Odex’s concerns from their point of view. For all that are out there shouting “BOYCOTT ODEX”, please calm down abit. I agree with dKiWi that it should to acheive a win-win situation and we really don’t need to have one where they lose out at the expense of us losing out or vice versa.
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:56 am
(a.k.a. Anonymous 124, 125, 133, 141, 157, 195, and 242)
@bakavic: Getting sleepy, but in response to your reply…
1.) The letters: That was the other possibility that I considered, And you never know until you try, so go for it. But at least one letter should give a brief summary.
2.) Legality of fan translations: I don’t think anyone’s really debating about fansubs being illegal - that much is a given. I think the main point is to give Odex a wake-up call: “If these so-called pirates are doing better jobs than you, for no pay at all, that’s just plain shameful. It’s time to start earning your keep.” And since it’s already gone into the offline world, other people will sit up and notice even if Odex doesn’t. (My parents are concerned, for one, and I haven’t even watched fansubs in a looooong while… so I explained the main points regarding the matter.)
As for Odex using fansubs (the degree of usage is still not confirmed), even if their case holds in a court of law, if it ever reaches that far, the shame of being associated with these “pirates” in such a manner will put another dent in their reputation. ESPECIALLY if it hits the press.
June 3rd, 2007 at 1:02 am
@ Pyrite: well I guess all we can really do with accordance specifically to your points and most points raised in the posts is really as Cat said before, watch and see. Of course that raises the point of us being apathetic people. *shrugs*
June 3rd, 2007 at 1:08 am
First of all, get the screenshots of the fansubs from somewhere, best not from ur own library, then do a side by side comparision. If there are numerous match, either those guys from odex are pirates or one of the subbers is actually working for them.
BTW, dun worry about getting my name wrong :P
I checked the ST site….. they not only want my name, they want my address and contact number too.
June 3rd, 2007 at 1:11 am
sorry for all the multiple post…. but youtube is not a very good option… Some Numbskull flagged the lastest bleach episode and it got deleted. Also dling from other sources are not as safe too, since Odex or AVPAS or IPOS will just backtrack and check ur log and try to figure things out.
June 3rd, 2007 at 1:15 am
I really feel sorry for some guys I know. :(
June 3rd, 2007 at 1:32 am
I have to say, regarding the article on straits times, much of it was flawed, inaccurate and biased. Its as if almost everything written was only on the companies’ view, when in fact, the consumers and anime fans out there really know what is going on.
First, regarding the “prices of anime DVDs are the world’s lowest” part. I do remember that a box of VCD from Odex contains 13 episodes as i have bought it before and it costs 29.90 at its usual price, if there’s and offer, usually it would be 26.90 at 10% off. I cant remember how much the DVDs cost, but if im not wrong, I think its 59.90 per box? (correct me if im wrong though) In any case, the thing is, they prices compared in the straits times article were 9.90 per DVD box, which I have no idea about, and probably most of the pple also have no idea about, but I have heard that they were sort of like trying to clear their stock, which was ridiculous if you think about it, because if im right, then they would be using the clearing off prices as their so called “USUAL PRICE”.
1st off, not many people know about this promotion, they have not made public announcements or anything regarding this situation, the websites are not updated (I only knew that they had a website only 3 days ago, and I have heard it is rarely updated and has been in restructuring for 2 to 3 weeks already), and who knows how long have this promotion lasted already. Im guessing maybe for a few months.
2nd, the “prices of anime DVDs are the world’s lowest”, as I have mentioned, who knows how long this promotion have lasted and when it has started. So they should have used the USUAL PRICE to compare to the US prices of USD 15 to USD 20, and if I am right about their DVDs costing 59.90, then if converted into USD, I dun think it costs less den USD 20?
3rd, the “fans did not bite” part, Im not really sure what were the animes that were on promo, maybe its all of them, maybe its just certain animes. But if they were giving promos on old animes, animes like FMA which i remember it was one of the very few that were released in DVD, have ended 3 years ago, i do not think many people would actually then be interested to buy it? Next off, the DVDs versions were released several months after the VCD versions (for the same anime), so for one who have already bought the VCD version, which is already very costly, would probably not buy another DVD version? so just who exactly could they be targeting to buy the animes in the promo period? This also made me wonder did they keep the promo in low profile just so they could release an answer such as “fans did not bite”.
This is only what I think about their “prices of anime DVDs are the world’s lowest”.
Second, I have read the article and also the regards to Dr Toh’s reply. I have noted the parts on when the article stated that Singapore had the highest amount of downloaders for anime besides the United States. Then I also recall that in Dr Toh’s reply, his statement — “Dr. Toh revealed that due to the small size of the Singapore market, the licensors are not prepared to offer Odex or other local companies the same sort of licensing agreements which the US companies receive.”
If Odex had already known about the amount of downloaders in Singapore, what is it that they had not released this information to the Japanese companies? This is already solid proof of how BIG the market actually is, isn’t it?
Also, does the Japanese companies in which they are representing for know the quality of products and the current situation between Odex and the anime fans?
Third, regarding “Focus groups, he said, have been unable to differentiate fansubs from its DVDs when played back on a 42-inch TV set.”
1st, just who may be the “focus groups” that they are talking about? are they people who might give biased information? but never mind this, as I feel that its only a small part.
2nd, this is the important part, why izzit that they have used DVDs to compare when most of their releases are actually in VCDs? I feel that using DVDs to compare would be inappropriate since they do not have that many DVD releases, those which have been released are animes which already ended since who know when.
3rd, being DVD quality, shouldn’t the people who actually pay good money for it receive even BETTER quality then the pirated fansub versions?
4th, there are other qualities besides the show itself, such as the timing of translations, the typesetting, and the translations itself, and there may be more, which I am not very sure of. Shouldn’t all these be also put into consideration?
This is just some of the many things that I have to say. IMHO, I believe that people who pay good money for their products should receive whats worth, and not something which is inferior. I mean, how can the originals be inferior to the fansubs. I believe that people buy the originals so that they could be proud of it (I know because I USED to be one, not anymore), but becuz of the quality of products, both interior and exterior, are inferior, people who buy the originals are often teased at for being stupid.
I myself, have bought a series titled “inuyasha” when I first started on anime. It was a popular series, I like the story, but I stopped buying it from VCD volume 7 onwards. Mainly because of these factors, the quality of the products were poor (timing of subs, video quality, translations inaccuracy), they had high costs (SGD29.90), and their release timing was not consistent. I bought VCD volume 6 of Inuyasha from Odex, and I was already very pissed off at their quality and price since its not worth the money, and the episodes in box 6 made me STOP watching popular series “Inuyasha” as one of the discs contained 2 episodes which are totally the same. I had to then get it exchanged (customer dissatisfaction). The volumes 7,8,9 were released like 3-4 months later.
Today, I took my inuyasha VCDs out, loaded it in my com, to recall how bad they actually are, I browsed through this certain episode, then I realised the timing of the subs were 2 seconds late in certain areas. The voice came out first then followed by the subs, just goes to show their inferior quality.
I think that they should not blame the fansubs so much for the damage they have suffered becuz most part of it was due to their incompetence. Since they already have sort of monopolised the anime industry in Singapore, and yet unable to have made much money despite the amount of people watching anime in Singapore. Even if the anime fans are unreliable sources, I have found other reliable sources which comment about Odex, such as “animenewsnetwork” and “wikipedia” itself. The company itself does not engage in the anime community, and right now, they release information which is more or less untrue.
I personally think that we should have something like a survey, on the public who do not watch anime, the anime fans, and japanese literate people on the quality of their product. maybe like rip a small part of the fansub version and the Odex version of a certain anime on entirely the same medium, and have them critiq on the quality without revealing which is which, while recording the whole situation down on tape. This would more or less prove how inferior their goods really are. But we would need people who have power to actually do that, but personally I do not have, so this is really just one of my suggestions.
I’ve said alot that I want to say, cant remember what I have actually forgotten, but will add it on if I remember. Im commenting here because I want people to actually know what kind of flaws they have in their article and reveal more or less the accurate information so people who don’t know wadz happening actually can understand what really IS happening.