Apocalypse now
Taken from RIUVA. So Odex has finally done it. Singapore’s anime community is doomed. Oh shit. So anyway some poor guy probably wet his pants after receiving this letter.
BTW the organization mentioned in the letter AVPAS (Anti-Piracy Association of Singapore) is similar to the RIAA/RIAS except that Odex appears to be the sole active member. The organization has obtained authorizations from various Japanese studios to represent their rights for all their copyrighted works, even those that are not licensed by Odex for distribution in Singapore. The full list of titles can be found on their website.
Read on for my thoughts.
That said, I am very, very curious as to how Odex, a private entity, managed to obtain personal data from the ISPs based on purely circumstantial evidences. As far as I can see from the AVPAS member list, there is zero indication that it is anything but a private organization. It is related to neither the police nor the relevant government agencies. Therefore, it is the anime equivalent of the RIAA.
However, RIAA, as mighty and powerful as it appears to be, is not able to obtain any personal information from American ISPs directly. It has to do it through the court. That means that it has to first start the legal procedures before the court issues a subpoena that forces the ISP to reveal the identity of the defender and summons the person to court. The defenders in these lawsuits are given the generic name “John Doe” because their names are undisclosed by their ISPs until after the court subpoena. In such cases, the first letter received by the poor sob should be from his own ISP informing him of the existence of such a subpoena for his identity.
The above letter is addressed to the person himself and was sent directly by Odex. This means that Odex, without first going through any legal proceedings, is able to obtain personal information directly from the ISPs using only the IP address. That is insane if you consider the amount of invasive power that has been put into the hands of private company and the potential for abuse by individuals with their personal agendas.
You know, there’s a certain someone whom I really hate on a certain forum. I will fake produce a record of his IP address illegally torrenting a picture that I once drew during a particularly boring physics lecture. I shall then e-mail this “proof” to Singnet and ask for this person’s home address. And if that doesn’t work, I’ll go spend a few bucks to register a company to make the request seem more legitimate…
Of course Odex is a legitimate company that is trying to protect its rights under the current intellectual property rights law (flawed as it may be). But my point is that if a private entity can obtain such information without the prior knowledge of the people involved and without the authority of the court, then what exactly in our legal system is protecting our privacy from abuse by some unscrupulous characters? And if such protection of personal privacy does indeed exist, what exactly allows Odex to bypass it?
Then again, I’m not well-versed with the local legal system. Maybe our privacy laws are really that screwed up. Oh well.
Read this excellent explanation of the “RIAA vs. John Doe” lawsuits, particularly the sections on “How the RIAA identifies the people they sue” and “The Lawsuit Begins”, and compare it to what Odex is apparently authorized to do. Doesn’t RIAA look like the better alternative?
So what are your remaining options for your weekly anime fix?
- Direct download sites
- Obscure Chinese Bittorrent trackers
- XDCC bots on IRC
- Download raws off Winny/Share
- Move to Japan
- Find a job at Odex
Alternatively, find a safer hobby like playing pirated computer games or serial jaywalking.




June 4th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Now I am seriously thinking of migrating to the outback.
Anyway, how do they know whether those attempts which my BT client made to download (overnight via RSS) actually got downloaded? All of them only got to 85% and got stuck. UNWATCHABLE!!! So i canceled and deleted them the next morning i woke up :P
So yes, my client attempted to dl those animes, but they were unwatchable, didnt complete. So they are juz pieces of data, codes, 1s and 0s…. These chucks of data were subsequently removed from my HDD :P
So pls Sir, tell me, what crime did i commit again?
Having once own parts of a gun doesnt mean i owned a gun right?
If u tell me my crime is that i click on a link and attempted to download data off the net, even though i subsequently removed that data (be it a completed one or not), then something is seriously wrong here.
I have said it once and i will say again, its a country spiralling downwards. Thou i had alot of fights and arguments over this point with my parents who happened to be civil servants. But i juz dun see any future at all, the old flame i felt for her in the old times when i was young seems gone. Or maybe i juz happened to be those so-called quiters.
June 5th, 2007 at 12:24 am
how many of us got the letter already??
June 5th, 2007 at 1:18 am
The way I see it, for all anime fans in Singapore, the best way to retain their freedom to download fansubs would be to preemptively strike. The easiest way would be to complain with CASE or another recognised and established body which can take action against ODEX and friends for producing works that are sub.par: i.e. poor subs, quality, and the subsequent damage to the anime watching experience.
BTW, DM, nice reference to that film. Human sacrifices are those that have been giving letters from ODEX?
June 5th, 2007 at 1:33 am
Wow, 302 (now 303) comments. Wow.
So active here, yet I’d bet that when Odex organises an open door meeting, the number of people attending will definitely be less than the number of comments on this particular post.
So there, continue whining, and have a nice life running away from problems forever.
June 5th, 2007 at 2:27 am
Hey guys, we have a way to win this war. I just discovered that ODEX has been drawing up a conspiracy to have all of us eat our shit. I got this information from a highly reliable source: my friend’s brother’s friend. He works at the office opposite ODEX.
You know, Blue Max. Or so he says. But he’s reliable.
So now all we have to do is to not eat our shit, great idea! Then when ODEX fails to make us eat our shit, they’ll have to smuggle heroin to eat. I mean, heron. Oh and I also heard that there’s an underground base under ODEX that’s cultivating Marijuana. Now we can sue.
I don’t mean the office building. I mean the base they have in Iraq.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:27 am
I feel that this is somewhat similar to the “smoking” issue. Most of us know that smoking is bad for you, “blah blah” and all that hype. Even the government warns us every now and then.
Yet, smoking is still considered part of our culture. And can anyone confidently say that they forsee the complete end of “smoking” literally? The same issue can be applied for music downloads. [ mp3 musics, who uses CD players nowadays? Or does anyone still remember the casettes?]
Perception is indeed the ultimate problem here. Remember in the past? Those fake doreamon and dragon ball 7 balls, toys and paraphernalia, that once existed long time back.
For this age group of anime fans, most of us have that “perception” deeply ingrained into us.
I remember someone mentioned a very good point earlier. To paraphrase ” You would have to kill of this entire generation of people and start brainwashing them over and over again. ”
For most of us, politics are like a way no no, and especially for me, I have to look over my shoulder every now and then, to make sure, I am not in sight of “Big Brother” watching.
It might seem like just excessive paranoia, but the letter above, will only serve to reinforce my beliefs.
They say that there is a price for freedom, but at what cost? At this rate, I feel that Singapore will be no different from “Neotopia” ==> Kiba anime, Not on AVPAs list.
For all that we might now, they would start actively killing anyone who speaks us against the absolute order which they have so proudly build on.
I will so far as challenge the notion, would we go down the similar path which led to the infamous crackdown in China?
I don’t know, I feel that Singapore is becoming more and more like a barrel of explosives, just tettering, with flames fluttering around. That is the price of stuffing so many people in such a small confined area.
June 5th, 2007 at 10:22 am
@ShivKite: IMHO, you’re overreacting.
[Yet, smoking is still considered part of our culture.]
Just because something is part of our culture doesn’t necessarily make it *right*.
[And can anyone confidently say that they forsee the complete end of “smoking” literally?]
Do you honestly think AVPAS will be able to catch every single person who downloads anime illegally, and hence completely eradicate the fansub downloading problem? I seriously doubt this will happen. Their goal is probably just to warn downloaders.
[For all that we might now, they would start actively killing anyone who speaks us against the absolute order which they have so proudly build on.
I will so far as challenge the notion, would we go down the similar path which led to the infamous crackdown in China?]
To the best of my knowledge, AVPAS is NOT a government organization. I doubt resolving the issue of illegal fansub downloads is so important as for them to even think of killing people for it. Sheesh.
[I don’t know, I feel that Singapore is becoming more and more like a barrel of explosives, just tettering, with flames fluttering around. That is the price of stuffing so many people in such a small confined area.]
I fail to see how a high population density contributes anything to the situation we have here.
Calm down, people.
June 5th, 2007 at 10:56 am
@exalt dragon: that (lodging a complaint with CASE) is the best idea I’ve heard all day ;)
I don’t personally own ODEX products - heard too much about their quality, or lack of it - but if anyone here is interested, check out this link: http://www.case.org.sg/medi1.htm
The process sounds relatively simple, and the only drawback I can see is the $10 administrative fee, but that’s a small price to pay.
June 5th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
@ psionix (and to everyone, PLEASE take note): I remember that there is a line in the Penal Code that states (roughly so, I don’t remember it word for word) that a person can be convicted or charged for their intent to commit a felony. And the felony in this case (I believe) would be to infringe upon the copyright of whatever you are downloading. There is to date, no case law, as far as I do know, of anyone being charged in court (of the intent) to infringe upon the copyright of an anime series, nor is there case law regarding the intent to distribute via P2P software. So we can’t really say no crime was committed IF the lawyers of Odex were to charge us THAT way. And as mentioned time and again, there is no actual precedent for such cases so we can’t really say what will happen. In such a case psionix, yes, the crime you have committed is just simply attempting to download something. Of course, intent to commit a felony is normally less serious than completing it in actual. However, in extreme cases, yes, it can be as serious as completing the download. That is as far as I remember of the short courses I took regarding certain chapters of the Penal Code and they are in no way definitive statements with regards to the topic at hand, but I just thought I ought to make it as clear as I can.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
@Ekard
I am not trying to argue with you here, just trying to toy with several idea, and see if there i any way out of it, so nothing personal. And pls, I would like to hear your points as well. Just treat it as a discussion.
So lets say my BT client has a Bad Regular expression and it automatically downloads those videos, I found it before its completed and deletes them. Is that an intention to commit felony? They have no evidence nor proof of the existence of the videos and the intent except for a list with my IP tagged onto it.
I mean, if i was busted with them actually proving that i had episodes of liscensed anime in my com, i would surrender. But this is not the case. They are suing u for clicking on the torrent file.
Trying to say that attempted murder is still a crime. But this is not!!!
I bought a knife cuz i wanted to kill someone. But after that a car knocked me down and the knife was broken. I was hospitalised. (or even better, i heard god telling me not to do it and he convinced me) Is the police gonna arrest me for attempted murder?
Hmmm, on another note, what if those videos arent bleach but teletubbies which someone actually jokingly uploaded with the name of bleach?
They might say thats not the case cuz they actually scrape the trackers, ie, they were one of the seeds/peers in that torrent, and thru that they got my IP. So that means they are actually seeding the file themselves, cuz u nid to upload in order to download in BT (not seed the 100% file, juz uploading pieces of data). If a fruit seller is giving out his fruits, doesnt that legally make those fruits free for all? Or maybe they got the IP list thru someone outside the company >
June 5th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
damn my message was cut. cant remember much of wat i had said after that.
Oh Cont…
Maybe iam juz toking cock here. too stress with the coming EOS exams :P
On another hand what if those torrents were queued. No downloading commence yet, at 0%, thou i am connected to seeds and peers. So that means they are suing me for downloading torrent files (unintentionally) which have no copyright materials in them wat so eva!
End of the day, the videos were never downloaded, I have never seen them nor intended to, neither were they in my HDD, and if the law still allow those monsters to have a case against me, isnt that seriously wrong?
June 5th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
@ psionix: Sorry if I sounded hostile or something like that. I was just raising the point of how they could actually charge us with stuff like that. I have a neutral stand here.
Hmmz, yes, I do agree with several of your points. That is why there is this discussion everywhere on how possible would the case be against us(?) if it WAS brought to court. As I mentioned before, there is no precedent so we can’t really tell what can happen.
And yes, according to the scenario(s) as envisioned by you, it would be extremely silly, not to mention a waste of taxpayers’ money, to actually charge the people in your scenario. As I am not a legal expert, I can only state as much of the obvious that I am aware about. Sorry, and do correct me, if I am wrong.
Intent to commit a felony is not a charge that is very commonly used, as the prosecution will have to prove a certain number of things, among which is how likely is the felony actually going to be carried out and how much to completion (in the case of long-term plans) is the felony.
As you will have noted, they have not actually sued you when they issue the letter. Granted, they DO have legal backing with regards to the abovementioned laws by me and other people of the discussion. However, to present a case definitely needs much more than just clicking a torrent file, as raised by you. To do that, they would have to search your computer and other such sources of information. It is possible if they manage to obtain a court order to search your computer. One of the reasons they haven’t really sued anyone yet is due to all these red tape. And yes, it IS possible to obtain a court order to search your computer.
One thing to actually note, Odex’s letters may give rise to many of the below scenarios:
1) If you meet them, and you are actually guilty.
In this case, you took the prudent way out, which is to pay the “3.5k compensation-fee”.
2) If you meet them, and you are not guilty.
In this case, if they believe you (or believe the case not worth pursuing to court), you would reach an understanding with no “fee” to either persons.
3) If you meet them, and you are actually guilty.
If they do take the case to court and win it, well the payout to them would be much much higher than the 3.5k. Lawyers’ fees, etc. {Well I’m obviously not trying to scare you guys, I too would suffer…}
4) If you meet them, and you are not guilty.
They took the case to court. If you won the case, then {SCORE ONE FOR US BT-ers!!!} there would be a case law regarding this. Odex would be less likely to sue in future. If you lost the case, Odex could become trigger happy anytime.
And yes psionix, in accordance to your many scenarios, that’s what they would have to prove. Unless you do have something wrong with your BT, then the fact that you attempted to download “a significant amount”* of anime is enough to convict you of an intent.
* As with the many laws in place, this is up to the Judge to understand it. If it is say, one movie and to which there is no prequel/sequel, the Judge could ALSO understand it as a significant amount. As I have said before, there is no precedent.
June 5th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
opps, sorry for the long post.
June 5th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Thank you Ekard. You were wonderful, and no, u didnt sound hostile, its me who wanted to place an argument therefore i begged your pardon :)
I have been looking for someone serious enough to give a counter-opinion to my views (which is sadly, hard to find on the net these days), and you had done it. Thanks again, it was a meaningful discussion.
And you had summed it up very nicely of the whole situation.
As a SGOtaku, i feel we shouldnt be trifled with and let this sort of things to slide by. If i was them i wouldnt even bother to pay the 3.5k. They can search my com all they wan, they wont find a thing. There is no reason we should let them have this victory (no matter how small it seems) as it will only fuel them with further motivation to take more ridiculous actions.
I am not saying downloading those videos is our right or that its legal. My point is if all they have is evidence of me clicking on a torrent tagged with my IP and try to get money out of me using that piece of shyt-covered toilet paper, then i would juz shaft it down their throat.
Will i think i will rest my case then.
Related replies 301, 309-312
June 5th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
Typo: Well i think i will rest my case then.
PS: i observed a trend whereby all those ppl who got into trouble with dling seems to be singnet users.
I have always supported cable. but maybe theres a connection to this? as someone earlier mentioned about the terms and condition of singnet.
And trust me, i read every of the 300 post before me :P
Thats all from me. SGOs, dun fret and keep the community alife!