Apocalypse now
Taken from RIUVA. So Odex has finally done it. Singapore’s anime community is doomed. Oh shit. So anyway some poor guy probably wet his pants after receiving this letter.
BTW the organization mentioned in the letter AVPAS (Anti-Piracy Association of Singapore) is similar to the RIAA/RIAS except that Odex appears to be the sole active member. The organization has obtained authorizations from various Japanese studios to represent their rights for all their copyrighted works, even those that are not licensed by Odex for distribution in Singapore. The full list of titles can be found on their website.
Read on for my thoughts.
That said, I am very, very curious as to how Odex, a private entity, managed to obtain personal data from the ISPs based on purely circumstantial evidences. As far as I can see from the AVPAS member list, there is zero indication that it is anything but a private organization. It is related to neither the police nor the relevant government agencies. Therefore, it is the anime equivalent of the RIAA.
However, RIAA, as mighty and powerful as it appears to be, is not able to obtain any personal information from American ISPs directly. It has to do it through the court. That means that it has to first start the legal procedures before the court issues a subpoena that forces the ISP to reveal the identity of the defender and summons the person to court. The defenders in these lawsuits are given the generic name “John Doe” because their names are undisclosed by their ISPs until after the court subpoena. In such cases, the first letter received by the poor sob should be from his own ISP informing him of the existence of such a subpoena for his identity.
The above letter is addressed to the person himself and was sent directly by Odex. This means that Odex, without first going through any legal proceedings, is able to obtain personal information directly from the ISPs using only the IP address. That is insane if you consider the amount of invasive power that has been put into the hands of private company and the potential for abuse by individuals with their personal agendas.
You know, there’s a certain someone whom I really hate on a certain forum. I will fake produce a record of his IP address illegally torrenting a picture that I once drew during a particularly boring physics lecture. I shall then e-mail this “proof” to Singnet and ask for this person’s home address. And if that doesn’t work, I’ll go spend a few bucks to register a company to make the request seem more legitimate…
Of course Odex is a legitimate company that is trying to protect its rights under the current intellectual property rights law (flawed as it may be). But my point is that if a private entity can obtain such information without the prior knowledge of the people involved and without the authority of the court, then what exactly in our legal system is protecting our privacy from abuse by some unscrupulous characters? And if such protection of personal privacy does indeed exist, what exactly allows Odex to bypass it?
Then again, I’m not well-versed with the local legal system. Maybe our privacy laws are really that screwed up. Oh well.
Read this excellent explanation of the “RIAA vs. John Doe” lawsuits, particularly the sections on “How the RIAA identifies the people they sue” and “The Lawsuit Begins”, and compare it to what Odex is apparently authorized to do. Doesn’t RIAA look like the better alternative?
So what are your remaining options for your weekly anime fix?
- Direct download sites
- Obscure Chinese Bittorrent trackers
- XDCC bots on IRC
- Download raws off Winny/Share
- Move to Japan
- Find a job at Odex
Alternatively, find a safer hobby like playing pirated computer games or serial jaywalking.




June 1st, 2007 at 4:52 pm
CONTINUED: Got some weird error while posting comment:
Oh and about putting blames, ODEX gave us CRAP in the first place and made us WAIT for crap, without even LISTENING to US for recommendations or suggestions for YEARS! Then when we get the CRAP, MDA butchers it further.
Can you blame the thousand or so fans for resorting to fansub downloads to get Anime the way the want it and the way it was meant to be shown? We are left to downloading because we are out of options and are left with no f**king choice!
Personally, I have spent close to S$20K on my current collection of Anime, Games, manga, Books and Collectables. All not surprisingly, IMPORTS. Of that value, 20% can be credited to shipping costs alone! Or air tickets to said countries to buy stuff during conventions. There is NOT one thing in my collection from Singapore.
Okok, except Pokemon Adventures English Manga from Chuang Yi. Even then the translation fails in some parts, especially when the names of Blue and Green. They translated wrong. The girls is actually Blue, and the guy (Gary) is actually Green. Yeesh.
I emailed em before about the error long ago. Not surprisingly, I not only NOT get a reply, they didn’t fix the error.
Goes to show how much local companies for our hobby gives a shit about us.
June 1st, 2007 at 4:54 pm
I don’t really mind paying more and buying DVDs if they are of good quality to watch and keep as collection. If quality is bad and they are outdated… no use even if bundle 10 of them and sell for $1. Nobody will buy and I guess this is the case now. People will rather pay more and import from Japan etc or get them through other means.
How bout I pay ODEX some amount of money per month to download those animes they licensed thru fansub sites for you to stop killing the anime community here…. as for the VCD/DVD… they can keep… I don’t really need that…since all they care is profit right? They don’t even need to do anything this way and can even save on VCD/DVD money! Think they’ll earn more than suing ppl this way…..
June 1st, 2007 at 5:03 pm
They can’t do that, fansubs are not to be sold, thats the No 1 rule in the fansubbing community. No one is to sell or buy fansubs. Thats one rule we Otaku intend to follow.
The solution is to set up a company locally that will rival ODEX in Anime marketing and releases. A company that gets licenses directly from the Japanese companies and release them only for Singapore.
As I said, the world isn’t just f**king America and Japan!
June 1st, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Hey guys.
I’m looking for abao in particular. If any of you who reads this knows him, please direct him to this comment.
I want to work with abao on his idea of a group to directly bring timely anime episodes into Singapore. It’s a really rough idea that both my friend and I thought up, and I think I can safely speak for my friend as well when I say that it would be a dream for us if we were able to pull it off. We moulded our import system after the iTunes Store, offering single episodes for US$1.99. That’s about SGD3 ba… and we think, for now at least, that that is a reasonable price. But whatever, these tiny things can be sorted out later.
Even though I said I am looking for abao, I am extending the invitation to anyone who feels passionate enough about this issue to join us. For starters we want to know how to go about obtaining licensing rights for anime series.
So abao, and anyone else who wishes to join in, please email me at wongrenhao@gmail.com. I’ll be waiting!
June 1st, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Oh ah holybell84… as for your first draft.
I dunno how to say this without sounding condescending. I know you are passionate about this article and indignant. We all are.
BUT, ST will never accept a letter containing your type of tone. If you want to see this staring back at you in a couple of days time in the Forum section, you will really have to bite your tongue, swallow a shitload, may I say, of humble pie, and write very very nicely and logically.
June 1st, 2007 at 5:23 pm
Yah I know ; ; Fansubs can’t be used for profit no matter what. Just ranting :X
Setting up a company locally to rival ODEX not that possible… even if have… also will be like many years from now…. only thing I can hope for and pray… is that ODEX can try to understand what their consumers (us) wants and needs and make some changes for the better. Not suing ppl and blaming everything to downloading cos nobody buying their craps… they should try to learn why their craps are so crappy and why nobody is buying…….. and listen to inputs.
June 1st, 2007 at 5:33 pm
@holybell84: Also, there’s a 400-word limit on Forum letters. =P I doubt there’ll be space to cover everything, so if you intend to send a letter out, make your points concise.
In addition, the fact remains that fansubbing, like it or not, is still illegal. Any concessions made to the practice are dependent on the goodwill of the people who can press charges. And while the points are valid, and have been echoed repeatedly by many members of the anime community, I sense a distinct lack of goodwill from The Powers That Be.
Good luck, but don’t get your hopes up too early.
And as a reference: 5parrowhawk’s page on a talk with Dr. Toh: http://haitaka.googlepages.com/home2
@Silverwolf X (OT): Not to nitpick, but there’s actually a historical precedent to the (mis)naming of the Pokemon characters in Pokespecial due to the original Gameboy games. The original Japanese games were Red and Green, and were crap in terms of quality. The upgraded Blue was subsequently released and used for the US Red and Blue, the first Pokemon games to be translated into English. That’s why the two guys, the original Japanese main characters, are named Red and Green in Pokespecial, but localised to Red and Blue for English-speaking audiences.
Not everything is Singapore’s fault. Almost everything, but not everything. =P
June 1st, 2007 at 5:49 pm
@holybell84: Your first draft is too long: 760 words. The word limit for articles to be published in the ST forum is 400 words.
Anyway, I just wanna say that I’m sick and tired of all the crap from ODEX just like everyone else here.
Singapore anime fans unite !!!!
June 1st, 2007 at 6:28 pm
damn, means that i have to summarise it.
June 1st, 2007 at 7:18 pm
BTW I just want to point out one thing at this point of time.
Based on my previous conversations with the CEO of Odex, I think the 42-inch comment that was published by Straits Times is a misunderstanding on the journalist’s part. Odex actually does focus-group comparisons using R2 (Japanese) DVDs with their own R3 DVDs. The video quality is actually on par, according to the people who did take part. (I was invited but I couldn’t find the time to go)
So the journalist must have misunderstood the whole thing. There’s no reason why Odex would comparing its products to fansubs since obviously fansubs suffer from compression issues and crappy video source.
Anyway, you cannot blame Odex for releasing VCDs. Casual viewers in Singapore and South-East Asia in general don’t give a damn about video qualities and VCDs are/were the de facto format. If Odex chose to release DVDs back when they started, they would have had a hard time finding mainstream stores (i.e. Poh Kim) willing to stock them. And obviously it’s unfair to compare VCD video quality (or lack thereof) to anything at all.
June 1st, 2007 at 7:33 pm
We should all send a copy of that letter to ST. That’ll make them talk.
Anyone in?
June 1st, 2007 at 7:34 pm
you might wanna take the “it’s free” out away, holybell, they will nitpick that out i can tell.
June 1st, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Their Monster subtitles are also strangely almost identical to Anime-Keep’s..
June 1st, 2007 at 8:24 pm
First I had like to say what I think about the warning letter or whatever stuff from odex. Sorry if I am ‘way-off’ from the topic if i have.
Initially I thought that downloading via bittorrent is safer because it comes from other country’s server, US for example, and thus will not be able to track down the ip address etc. Guess I was wrong afterall.
In my opinion, Odex right now is just like talking crap, all of a sudden tracking down people who download and banned/fined them saying about copyright stuff etc..
But still, people who download fansub anime is mainly because of the odex anime selection where there is just so less titles of them, not even enough for us to choose from.
My question is:
Since downloading from Bittorrent is not an option now, is there still a chance to download via IRC xdcc or ddl? Is the chances to be caught higher than through downloading from bt?
June 1st, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Blame the advanced technology we had now, which results in anime shows that can be fansubbed by anyone who is doing that. Can’t blame those who is downloading them.
People now is of a different genetration of the past. Now, technolgy is running people, which causes people to drive them.
Blame the technolgy and not on the people that download them.
June 1st, 2007 at 8:35 pm
Youtube.
I can see that you like Haruchi a lot too.
June 1st, 2007 at 8:56 pm
@ someone out there, I don’t remember who.
If someone is willing to record/take pictures of GSD on KC tomorrow, I can screencap some scenes from the fansubs to compare the subs.
Anyway, I do hope there’s some errors in the article, because the “perception problem” annoyed me and I’ve never heard of this 3 DVDs for $9.90 promotion.
Also Odex, I might buy your DVDs if you get rid of the Mandarin track and stick in US English ones. :D Because honestly, who actually watches your DVDs/VCDs with the Mandarin track?
June 1st, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Looking at everything here, I don’t know if I should laugh or cry. The whole issue had been so overblown that it had appeared in the Straits Times. Sucks to be flamed for this but I’m gonna say it.
Fansubs, like it or not, are technically infringement of copyright laws, suck thumb and accept that. Crackdowns did not stop mp3 downloading, I highly doubt it will stop fansub downloading but for this conflict with ODEX, in layman terms, we punched first. AVPAS has the law on their side and if we insist on maintaining our stand, all we can do is lie low for now.
On the other hand, I would advocate engagement with them instead. Organize a forum or something or get one of the local anime clubs with contacts to do it. Then just go with all your evidence/ counter-evidence and slug it out in civilized debate. Finally come to an agreement with each other and correct this ‘perception problem’. If nothing comes out of it, the more ammo for us to blame ODEX for not listening to the fans. It is time we take the initiative rather than just react with blind fury to every letter received.
This could actually benefit both sides rather than handing each other indirect punches and ruining Singapore’s reputation in the international anime community. They get their business with our input and we get what we want.
June 1st, 2007 at 9:02 pm
DDL has a lesser change of being caught. since the time taken is short unless the ISP will to check the log.
June 1st, 2007 at 9:11 pm
so how about downloading from irc, the xdcc bot? Does it also has a lesser chance of being caught?
June 1st, 2007 at 9:14 pm
I would suggest Odex do a survey. What are the titles we want? What are the extras we want? How much are we willing to pay?
I mean, before you start a business, shouldn’t you do a survey to check on your market etc?
June 1st, 2007 at 9:24 pm
i not quite sure for xdcc, heard from my friend that they seem to be catching also.
June 1st, 2007 at 9:30 pm
from what i know is that dling zipped anime show is quite safe. since isp/odex cant see what is inside the file. However odex still can find base on the name of the anime you are dling. .rar file seem safe for now.
June 1st, 2007 at 9:32 pm
I see. I thought it will also be the same as ddl. Thanks for the info
June 1st, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Reference to concerned’s posts, it’s true that ODEX used to sell pirated stuff. I remember going to their shop at SLS quite often when I was younger, and boy the stuff they sell sure are “original” bootlegs.
Trackback from
New DomainJune 1st, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Anime-Downloaders: Beware…
I saw this today in Straits Times and reported on a blog by a fellow Singaporean: ODEX is seeking legal action against those who download anime.
From a scan of the letter posted at the blog, it was evident that bittorrent was the source of the evidence…
June 1st, 2007 at 11:55 pm
i only just saw the article on ST and immediately stopped all my BT after reading through all these posts. =( hopefully i don’t receive any shit letters in the next few days/weeks. i wonder if anyone can guide me to buying good anime (accurate subtitle, on dvd). where can i get them? i still need my dosage of anime!!!
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:04 am
hmmm…. will shorten the letter I intend to send to ST and post it here b4 i send it out for real.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:14 am
B4 we send any letters, pls read sparrowhawk’s interview.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:30 am
we can always watch animax…(dies at dub)
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:35 am
Actually I don’t think ODEX gets much profits from selling anime. Their primary source of income is more likely from small scale productions which are outsourced to them from other distributors.
If that’s the case, then they have nothing to lose if everybody here in sg boycotts their sales. They’re probably earning more by claiming damages from illegal downloaders.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:42 am
“They’re probably earning more by claiming damages from illegal downloaders.”
Jesus Christ, that’s alarming indeed if that’s true, a more lucrative business strategy indeed, LOL.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:58 am
ya, did my own snipping here and there and after reading sparrowhawks own article, here is the second and final draft.
Dear editor,
I am writing in response to the article ‘Getting Anime Illegally Online? Beware.’ posted in the papers on 1st June.
After doing some research on the local anime community, I would like to point out why most anime fans download fansubs:
- Despite the moderate size of the anime library in Singapore, most of them are in VCD formats, which provide lower resolutions than fansubs. Quite a number of fans prefer DVD quality animes
- The library of anime is no updated frequently with new titles. Titles in Singapore are released after a relatively long period from airing in Japan.
- Some anime titles have so much parts cut out from them that the ‘ flow of watching is disrupted’.
- Grammatical and other errors present in the subtitles.
- The DVDs are lacking in extras, which will make watching more fun.
- There is a lack of advertising for the anime titles that are to be released, hence barely anyone will know about them at first.
- Animes shown on TV ( Arts Central) tend to have repeated broadcast.
All the above mentioned factors contribute to the large number of illegal downloads of animein Singapore. But however, the situation can be improved if the animes released legally in Singapore are more ‘friendly’ by interacting with more anime fans, doing surveys and examining other companies like Bandai in America for example.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:59 am
Just a question. Are they claiming damages or threatening legal action for copyright infringement? I’m no lawyer but I think damages can be claimed only if they prove that there are damages involved. What I mean is can they claim damages for an anime which they haven’t released?
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:02 am
“The DVDs are lacking in extras, which will make watching more fun.”
Exactly how my friend and I feel. Licensed DVD releases should have more incentives for people to buy. They shouldn’t just punish those who do wrong, but should reward those who do what’s right. But at the current look of things, I’m not only not rewarded but maybe even “punished” (with low quality products) for being a good citizen.
Maybe you could include this in your letter.
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:13 am
Thanks to hollybell84 for leading the way with his first draft letter to the forum page. I’ve been inspired by him to write another letter, in part helped along by some of the points he has mentioned in his letter.
Unfortunately, I was not able to include all his points due to the word limit, but I’ve tried my best to cram in his most important points, as well as a few of my own.
Feel free to edit and comment on this. If people feel it is fine, I will mail it off Saturday night.
Also, I would like to get in touch with hollybell84 and others who will be writing letters, so that we can split all our points over seperate letters. My email is bakavic(atto)gmail{dddoott}comm.
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:16 am
@Anonymous:
I don’t really like this whole part of the whole letter from Odex. Its intentions are really unclear.
Seeing as we’ve heard stories of the first victim trying to settle for an out of court payment instead of immediately pressing legal action first, which is almost always the case, for most cases I’ve heard of. Pardon me if I am wrong but I do believe that an affidavit is filed first, and the case is then dropped if an out of court settlement is reached.
At this point, I don’t see them being any better than the bastards from RIAA, thinking they’re above the law and such, even though they may be backed by a statutory board.
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:19 am
They have everything to lose if a large-scale boycott is going on.
A licensee of any given franchise, has obligation to meet minimum sale quota in order to them to maintain their right to franchise. Their licensing agreement will be in deep sh*t if the sale was severely below target. Master franchisee may forgo the agreement and give the rights to another party who may be able do a better job.
Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odex
“Of important note is that Odex apparently has the legal right to use legal action against people downloading anime fansubs of series that they do not sell, as long as they are produced by the Japanese companies that they represent”
Looks like they might have found a new business model. Anybody remember SCO Unix who survive by suing every other linux distro out there? This has the same saga written all over…
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:26 am
Sorry, I’m kind of new to the anime scene and that means I’m obviously much more pissed than any of you guys who have loads of anime to fall back on. However, just to alert anyone who still has ANY doubts on the SAFETY of TORRENTS, it is that a dynamic or static ip address does NOT matter. A dynamic ip address is as unsafe as a static ip address in this case as we see it is a matter of finding out the EXACT USER at a particular time using the ip address at that time. This can (technically only) be found by asking the relevant ISPs *coughs s****** coughs*. All they’d need would be an ip address at a particular time. Whether or not your ip address changes would be of NO ISSUE to them and you would STILL BE FOUND OUT unless the ISP doesn’t reveal your identity or check out your downloads for the people who requested *coughs o*** coughs* Sorry for the CAPS, its to make sure any of my innocent fellows get the main point and stop their downloads if they find it dangerous.
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:31 am
to those who are writing in to the ST forums thing: Good luck.. The rest, wait in peace.
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:32 am
@jetable:
I think you’re missing the whole point of the discussion here.
Its true that Odex DOES have the right to exercise legal action by punishing downloaders, and I DO feel that this poor idiot, who downloaded 3 pages worth of episodes deserves to be punished. I think most people here do agree with me here.
What I do believe, most people here think is that, Odex, having ‘monopolised’ the have done nothing in the years to please anime fans. The bad rapport with fans with nonexistant communication, low, quality products and impatient fans. We’re just criticising Odex, because they deserve to be.
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:34 am
They did not represnt kyoto animation? So does that mean more Seifuku?
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:37 am
I find it weird that KyoAni, with its famous anime release, is not looped in…..
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:44 am
Kyoto animation is a small company, and they do very few animes per year. Furthermore, with Odex not in good shape financially, I seriously doubt that they could afford to pay for licenses for FMP, Haruhi, Lucky Star, etc…
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:47 am
@bakavic: A cursory look, but it’s “perception” and “plethora”.
And this is purely my opinion, but I feel that the talk of extras with DVDs shouldn’t be the main priority. After all, the possible counter to this point would be “no profits, therefore no funds for extras”. Instead, my biggest beef is with quality control. Decent fansub groups provide quality subtitles for free: my Odex G Gundam VCDs are barely coherent on sets 2 and 4, and I dished out good money for that. The best part is, THOSE CAME WITH THE ENGLISH DUB! Was it that hard to piece something together that actually made a little sense? (I’d like to digress a little, but to me, Odex’s overall subbing record is more irregular than uniformly bad: their Witch Hunter Robin subs were good, but some of the others…) Which brings me to the next point…
@Christopher, ethreal and all those who’ve volunteered comparisons:
We shouldn’t judge by their earliest releases, since I seem to recall that Odex admitted a goof over quality control (at least where subs were concerned). GSD seems like a good choice: it’s fairly new, and it can be checked against fansub groups’ releases (esp. regarding allegations of plagarism) – if the KC one still shows with the English subtitles left on. Plus I’m sure somebody’s on the web’s ordered the R1s, right?
June 2nd, 2007 at 2:08 am
@negativezero:
I am just stating to post#180, the implication if ppl were to boycott a franchised product. Nothing more.
In US, companies spend millions of marketing dollars to learn from customers how well/bad they are doing so that they can do round the clock improvement. This is probably the best time for a company like od*x to collect genuie feedbacks from community at large, without spending a dime. If after all these big kahuna, all the issues are never addressed whatsoever, I can only deemed the company hopeless beyond hope.
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:32 am
“But however, the situation can be improved if the animes released legally in Singapore are more ‘friendly’ by interacting with more anime fans, doing surveys and examining other companies like Bandai in America for example.”
holybell84 do you mean to say the releaser? ODEX?
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:47 am
@jetable:
then this is another point where odex again takes the fall.
assuming, that IF(and this is a very BIG IF) odex DOES listen to whatever the fans want, and does improve on their PR, DVD quality, etc… I would dare say that most hardcore fans would give them a second chance.
however, i still do have a feeling that, the occasional watcher, would still be left out. after buying their first set from odex and subsequently losing confidence in them. i can hardly believe that the company is able to pull back, its majority of anime watchers, the mainstream people.
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:27 pm
@Farinelli
Yeah, Odex, since they were the one on the article.
June 2nd, 2007 at 2:50 pm
A picture speaks a thousand words:
http://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=animepricelesskn0.jpg