Odex — having your cake and eating it too
UPDATE 20/11/2007: Note to foreign readers. This article is about Odex’s local copyright enforcement actions that took place in Singapore in mid 2007. This is not directly related to its latest international efforts. Please refer to here for discussions on the latest development.
Here is my summary of what I think of Odex’s grand scheme to dominate the local market in one daring move, and why I think they will fail terribly and spoil it for the rest of us. As some of you may or may not know, I met with Peter Go, director of Odex, twice before and had some discussions with him long before the start of the on-going fiasco (after he read my letter). At that time, I promised him that I would not reveal anything that was said during our private conversations, so I shall honour that promise. Not that I have a need to, now that Odex has shown its hand and everything has been made public. Anyway, just hoping to clear up some FUDs that have been making their rounds in every single forum thread on the topic.
Anti-Video Piracy Association of Singapore (AVPAS) is not affliated to the government.
Never was, never will be.
Odex is the sole active member of AVPAS.
Although Odex is inconspicuously in the middle of the member list of AVPAS, it is not too much a stretch to say that AVPAS is essentially Odex and not much more. Basically it’s like how music labels use RIAA to redirect the bad publicity away from their brand names, except that Odex is failing horribly at it because they were too lazy to create a letterhead for AVPAS and decided to use their own instead. Big mistake.
Odex is not, and has never been, the dominant proliferator of anime in Singapore.
They may be the one with all the licensing rights, but exponential growth of anime’s popularity seen locally was not their doing. Odex VCDs and DVDs have never received the level of acceptance and respect given to R1 DVDs by the American anime community. With or without BitTorrent.
Odex employees download fansubs.
According to various personal blogs belonging to related individuals. Or just common sense. I mean, the only reason why those people are working for Odex is because they are anime viewers. Where do almost all Singaporean fans get their anime fix from? Hint: it ain’t packaged in silver. Are their employees being issued similar letters?
Not all the AVPAS titles are licensed for local distribution.
Although Odex is the only active member of AVPAS, it does have the consent of the Japanese studios to act on behalf of them. Odex is empowered, through its own creation AVPAS, to defend the copyrights of these studios, whether or not the works in question are licensed for distribution by Odex. This can be said to be very unfair because many of the items are not legally available in Singapore except through expensive parallel importing and the actual damages done by illegal downloading to Odex’s business is therefore zero for these particular titles. Still, it appears that Odex does indeed have the right to represent the interest of those Japanese studios and thus it is within their abilities to sue for certain titles that they do not hold the distribution rights for.
The Japanese studios are not directly involved.
As far as I can tell, the Japanese studios did not initiate this. They probably do not care about what Odex does since Singapore is an insignificant market to them. From what little information is available, it appears that AVPAS was created initially to target commercial bootlegging, for example in 2004 they won a case against a local retail chain to raid their warehouse. This suggests that the Japanese studios authorized Odex to represent their interests so as to fight what they perceive to be commercial piracy. Whether or not this authorization is now being misused by Odex for their own agendas is highly questionable.
Odex did not send any warnings.
When a local blogger first mentioned in passing that Odex was going to take legal actions, they denied it and refused to comment on it. Then one day the letters started flying out of the blue and immediately started to demand money. This really makes one question Odex’s intention.
As a private entity, Odex cannot file a criminal suit.
Although they mentioned “fines of $10,000 per item and imprisonment of 5 years” in their letter, Odex can do nothing of that sort. They can launch a civil suit against you and if they win they can claim damages incurred. But they cannot force the relevant authorities to press criminal charges against you. That is up to the government to decide.
Neither can Odex prevent any criminal charges.
Even if you pay Odex their $3,000 or so, there is nothing to stop the government from pressing criminal charges against you. Copyright infringement is a criminal offence in Singapore. Odex can do nothing to interfere with that. In fact, even if they promise not to sue you themselves, there is nothing that legally prevents them from reporting you to the relevant authorities. In fact, it would be illegal for them to make such a promise.
Odex claims $3,000-$5,000 settlement is for legal and tracking fees.
With 1,000 subpoenaed IP addresses per ISP for SingNet, Starhub and PacNet, we end up with exactly 3,000 IP addresses being affected. Let’s very generously estimate that PacNet manages to appeal successfully and protect the identity of its subscribers and that 1/3 of the addresses are either duplicates (due to dynamic IP assignment) or otherwise unsuitable for Odex’s purpose (e.g. employees, friends and/or relatives). We are still left with about 1,300 or so targets. Let’s assume that everyone only has to pay, on average, $3,000. That is a total of 3.9 million dollars we are talking about, and that is the low end assumption. It can potentially be twice as much if you change a few variables.
According to this The New Paper article, Odex enlisted the help of a US company in tracking BitTorrent downloads. It doesn’t take 3.9 million dollars to run a bunch of servers to auto-scrape at regular intervals every torrent file posted on AnimeSuki and TokyoTosho using their RSS feeds. As for legal fees, Odex mailed their letter using their own letterhead and, from the accounts of people who received the letter, there is no indication that a lawyer was present during their meetings with Odex representatives. Which means that Odex only had to pay for at most legal advices, if anything at all. Certainly not worth 3.9 million dollars.
All that money has to go somewhere. I wonder where…
Odex has already paid all the necessary fees.
At least, that seems to be a logical assumption, since people don’t work for free. In other words, Odex created this elaborate scheme to instil fear, uncertainty and doubt into fansub downloaders, but they don’t want to have to pay for it themselves. So now they are asking you to pay up. They want to have your cake and eat it too. Also, what happens when they have collected enough to make back their original investment? I doubt it was anything more than $100,000, unless people really do pay millions(!?) of dollars for someone to scrape torrent trackers, in which case I shall end my rant here because I have a company to start up. After making back their investment, will Odex cease this futile fear mongering or will they earn some profits while they are at it? Have they already earned back their investment? I think there are a lot of questions in this area that need answering.
Odex does not have a foolproof case in court.
There is little precedence to work with, but there are many holes in their argument. The only evidence they have of your infringement is the IP address, which may not be enough. Various people have also reported that they were turned away when they went to talk to Odex with a lawyer, which is an indication that Odex is uncertain about the validity of its claims. At least one person was advised by his lawyer to ignore the letter and delete all the things he downloaded. So far Odex has not taken any actions against him. If more people refuse to pay up, Odex may be forced to either sue someone to make an example of him or to give up on this whole endeavour. If they do sue, there is no guarantee of victory and it is very hard to guess how much damages the court will award even if they win. It may even be less than $3,000-$5,000.
You are not guilty until proven so in court.
You are not obligated to show anything to Odex just because they send you a letter. You do not have to admit to anything and you should not incriminate yourself. Ask them for all the evidence they have against you. Ask them to explain clearly how each piece of evidence proves their claims. Ask them for a breakdown of the payment and why the amount varies from person to person, especially since they claim that it is supposed to be for the fees they have incurred. Do not sign anything. Seek legal advice if possible.
Odex is attempting to launch a Video-On-Demand service.
Prevent people from downloading and then launch their own service. It seemed like the perfect plan. Unfortunately, it was delayed (perhaps indefinitely), leaving people with nothing but an empty “under construction” page. Also, consider the next point…
The Odex brand is permanently tainted.
Who is going to utilize a VOD service if Odex does manage to get it up eventually? The same teenage anime fans that are defacing pictures of Stephen Sing, the other director of Odex, on HWZ now? Somehow, I don’t think so. Mr. Peter Go also mentioned in the TNP article that Odex sales fell 50% in 2006. Well, who’s taking bets for 2007? In the unlikelihood that sales actually improve, it can only be attributed to market demands generated by certain pyrotechnic displays. Seriously, I have bought Odex VCDs before and now I won’t ever again. How exactly was this supposed to be a response to poor sales again?
My General Paper teacher read about this in the papers and he thinks that Odex is just being greedy.
This is the first time my teacher has heard of Odex. His opinion is that if Odex was really working for the public good, they should have given sufficient prior warnings. It’s very sad when such an unpleasant undertaking becomes your company’s sole source of publicity for most of the population who has, until now, been completely oblivious to your existence. Contrary to the popular old saying, there is such a thing as bad publicity, especially when you are trying to sell something.
Most other forms of downloading are not affected.
HTTP, FTP, IRC, video streaming sites and a whole lot more. BitTorrent just so happens to be easily monitored due to every torrent file having its own tracker and swarm. But no US company is going to be able to log your HTTP downloads without violating some much more serious laws. While P2P file-sharing networks are vulnerable, they are much less so than BitTorrent due to the different nature in file distribution. Ultimately, this crackdown will only serve to increase the popularity of crunchyroll and similar video streaming sites, which is indeed a terrible prospect for those of us who somewhat value video quality, but does nothing for Odex’s stated goal of fighting illegal downloads.
Well, that’s a lot of typing. Maybe I’ll update this when I think of more things.
August 19th, 2007 at 3:51 am
Intelligence from DM? :o
August 19th, 2007 at 4:24 am
Hmm. I never knew you had a private conversation with Go, but then whatever you had up there was kind of shocking to me, at least.But I wonder if others were to be heard of this.
August 19th, 2007 at 4:28 am
In the end, it’s all about money really–to them you’re just a statistic, and whatever justification that you make will not overpower their need for more money.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:22 am
even so, shld anyone ignore & refuse to respond or pay the “fine” and get into a civil law suit with Odex… would probably lose the case… paying the court fees and the damages incurred by odex(which would be more than 5k), makes this pretty much of a extortion… i wonder… those people who had already paid the fine… able to sue odex back for “Misrepresentation” of their rights to sue you, therefore forcing anyone to choose this path of “cheaper” exit a.k.a ‘blackmail’?
I think, even if they can’t sue you as a private entity, they can sort of tip off the IPOS and give them the evidence?
August 19th, 2007 at 5:55 am
Thanks for clearing some things up. Yesterday, after reading some digg, I was wondering how fucked up Singapore law would have to be with the power their (faking) flaunting. But then again, they did legally force internet service providers to fork over private IP addresses, something I’ve never heard happening elsewhere.
August 19th, 2007 at 6:05 am
Sorry but I did some research on the law in S’pore.
Summary, Odex CAN sue ppl as they considered a “owner” of the copyright.
And it is definitely cheaper to pay the fine.
Please read
http://www.singaporelaw.sg/File/iplaw2.html#section6
12.1.9 under Copyright Offences
12.1.16 under Remedies
Sad. We can’t win them in terms in law.
But I’m pretty sure they can’t survive with their current reputation as well.
With the S$4 million. They probably can survive another 5 years with no sales. By the time people would have forgotten abt it. (Man! to be oppressed for 5 years!) or they would have already changed for the better… “I just wish they go away though…’Poof’ will do fine… BOOM would be better”
August 19th, 2007 at 8:19 am
man, dm, odex is so gonna screw you if they see this lol. So is tjhan and drmchsr0.
But cool stuff, this is the only article so far i’ve read that actually comforts me since may (yes, i’ve been worrying since freaking may, wanna see my white hair?).
thanks.
August 19th, 2007 at 9:48 am
Like what you had said, its the money that counts. They are taking the law into their hands and trying to form a monopoly with their evil tactics. But even if they are on the right side of the law, they should start with issuing warning letters and not outright lawsuits. The choice of the latter clearly shows that they are after the money.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:17 am
[QUOTE] Sorry but I did some research on the law in S’pore.
Summary, Odex CAN sue ppl as they considered a “owner” of the copyright.
And it is definitely cheaper to pay the fine. [/QUOTE]
They need to prove they are “owners”. They need to show the licenses they bought from Japanese companies. The list in AVPAS is pretty bullshit. The most they can sue is on behalf of the Japanese companies they are representing for the unlicensed titles and they need to show the money goes back to the Japanese not them. The damages they can claim for themselves are only the titles they have licensed for reproduction in Singapore. We can probably fight for the titles that are not in silver boxes yet.
Unfortunately this is the only argument that I can think of which can be brought into court. Outside court, it’s up to the Odex pple to “sympathize” with the reasons you give when you meet them to pay up.
In anycase, it’s a lose-lose situation. I doubt all my legally bought R2 dvds can save me in the event anything happens.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Unfortunately, the Japanese studios ARE involved. Let’s just give an analogy in terms of biology. Odex is the brain sending out the nerve impulses and also the muscles performing the actions while the Japanese studios are the various molecules which facilitate this, such as sodium ions, ATP and etc.
hitoshura: Don’t worry, the world has many viewpoints, and DM shares mine with regards to anime fans :)
August 19th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
We should set up some kind of “Anime Fans Association of Singapore”. Then we go on legal protest strikes and the Police will throw us in jail. This will make the headlines and add some spice to the boring Singapore scene. Unfortunately, like me, not many will have the balls nor the LACK of common sense to do it. :P
All talk and no actions make me an ordinary SGean Tom, Dick and Harry.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Beowulf:
They did not force ISPs to reveal IP addresses, they forced them to reveal the information related to IP addresses that they have already collected. It’s the same thing that RIAA does.
Anyway the Japanese studios are involved only as much as they choose to do nothing about anything. Odex wanted to do this and the Japanese saw no reason to object. It is more like how US-supported foreign dictatorships can abuse human rights all they want in their own countries as long they give what the Americans want (i.e. oil).
August 19th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
If you want to enligt your self about fansub go to here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_Sub
August 19th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
I’ve been chasing TNP acticles on ODEX too. Although I do agree intruding privacy of Stephan Sing is a bit too much. But it just shows how much hatred is going around…
With their reputation now… I think no matter what they do.. improve on quality ah… do those “Buy 1 get 10 free” offers ah…. nobody going to buy from them anymore (At least I won’t)… and they know it…so they just choose to continue what they are doing now: sending more letters and heck care about their products. “Selling” a few sheets of paper for 3k is better profit than anime for them I guess.. since they don’t wanna do business the proper way. Maybe after collecting money from everyone they caught, they’ll just close down company and share profits. lol 3.9m leh.. share among those staffs i think can last for quite long sia.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
If any one want to enlight them self about fan sub goto here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_Sub
I personally love fan sub, because I can’t affore the real thing. I would like very much watching an anime on TV.
When downloading fansub, make sure that it untrackable, you download from an off shor (out of the country) server.
Why don’t the Fansubbers form it own company and make this “Odex” company fall.
Remmember “if you are truly a fan, delet the fansub once you buy the real thing” also you won’t sell it.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
I hate to say this, but Singapore is not exactly a big country (duh). The anime market here is still a pretty niche one. The problem is “Odex” was a company that was formed by anime fans and (fansubbers) and you can see where that lead to now :rolleyes:
We’re not America you know. We don’t even have an equivalent “Fair Use” Rights here. So we’re pretty much screwed when something big happens here since we’re pretty much helpless. And it’s hard for us to be litigious like the Americans. Suing millions of dollars for just a pair of pants is what Americans are capable of, not us.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
At the very least, RIAA is made up of major record companies; AVPAS is made up of, ahem, Odex. The Japanese companies there are all represented by Odex rather than representing themselves, which is just as well as saying they’ve given Odex full autonomy.
Dare anyone still argue that AVPAS is unbiased and non-profit?
August 19th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
tjhan : Unfortunately, the Japanese studios ARE involved. Let’s just give an analogy in terms of biology.
What I like to know is, why start here? American has a bigger pool of BT anime downloaders, has a bigger market, and besides, most English fansubs originate from there. Why don’t you see this kind of crackdown even mentioned there? Instead, we have Bandai thanking fans who watched fansubbed Haruhi and then support the original?
Unless someone has been giving them a very wrong picture of the anime community here? I’m speculating, but how does the Japanese companies come to see Singapore as the second most active anime pirate hub here?
Moreover, if the Japanese companies ARE indeed the ones who ordered this, where’s the official statement? Its one thing for Odex/AVPAS to claim one thing, another to actually show it. Or are the Japanese companies aware this is bad PR for them as well?
August 19th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
odex fail so hard they are a winning failure.
August 19th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
This post is short and sweet so it gets straight to the point.
I think so far,this is one of the most informative posts on ODEX out in the net.I’m sure many have learnt a new thing or two from reading this.
Anyway,I look forward to your next update on this issue.
August 19th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
yoshi, i asked that often too.
why start here? the answer is obvious.
Sg is small and laws make sgreans walk in line to the max, step out of the line and they will anal rape you.
Like i heard from someone once. Sg is like playing sims city with 4 sq, it’s too easy to control, that why they start here.
August 19th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
well u can pay $6/mth to crunchyroll n watch it in high quality lol… think crunchyroll looks horrible cause they shrank the file n quality. if u se rm to download it its onli 30mb
August 19th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
http://odex-rebellion.blogspot.com/
Odex Burning Ceremony on August 25th @ Youth Park CHANGED TO CD RECYCLING DRIVE.
ATTENTION:
=====================================================================
CHANGED AS OF 19TH AUGUST 2007 4:15PM (1615 HRS), THE ODEX BURNING CEREMONY WILL BE CHANGED IN LIGHT OF ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES. THERE WILL BE A COLLECTION OF ODEX CD’S AT THE YOUTH PARK ON AUGUST 25TH 2007 AT 5:00PM (1700 HRS). BREAK THE CD’S AND TOSS INTO OUR JUNK BAG, AND THE CARDBOARD CD COVERS WILL BE SEPERATED FOR RECYCLING. ALL THRASHED CD’S WILL EITHER BE RECYCLED OR RETURNED TO ODEX AT THEIR OFFICE. SIMILARLY, TRADE IN YOUR BOX FOR A RIBBON AND JOIN THE CAUSE.
August 19th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
hitohura: Sg is small and laws make sgreans walk in line to the max, step out of the line and they will anal rape you.
Thought about that too. That, and the sad fact that the market is so small here no one cares if it’s gone overnight. The remaining question, though, is what do they (Japanese companies, government, Odex) hope to achieve from this?
Pirated anime doesn’t originate from here. There are few, if any, bootlegged anime, fansubs, or torrent servers. There are just downloaders who are insignificant if you consider the market here. Whatever that gets uploaded via BT elsewhere is nothing compared to, say, the US or China. The impact this crackdown has on the anime community around the world is zilch. They can’t just replicate what Odex did here elsewhere and expect to succeed. So, you do have to wonder what the Japanese companies gain from all this.
As for the government, it’s good publicy for their anti-piracy message to potential investors, but even if Japanese studios invest here, they’ll need people familiar with anime to help run this new economy. By literally killing off the anime community - including people who support original but are totally turned off by what is happening here - they’re killing off the talent pool for the local industry. Try running an anime business with people who don’t watch or care about “japanese cartoons” and your business will flop in no time. Of course, they can import talents from overseas, but they’ll cost. Besides, the dirge in anime culture here is likely to affect these expats as well - these talents need to work in an environment that encourage their creativity.
So, that only leaves Odex, who’s probably reaping a windfall from all this legal activitiy. But what’s their business model going to be? They’ve probably lost the support of the market, and have to rely on distribution of rights to regional broadcasters for profits. If this anti-Odex sentiment takes root in the US anime community - this is the Internet age we’re talking about - distributors there may even hesitate to subcontract stuff to them in fear of backlash from fans. So, much depends now on the success of their VoD venture, but what if that fails as well? I hope they won’t blame that on downloaders as well and dig out the IP logs for another round of witch-hunting. :)
The anime industry in Japan is bleeding, that we know. But online piracy isn’t the sole reason for that. Most fans lament at the quality of the anime producted these days; yes, there are good ones, but for every one of those you have a dozen that are made just to exploit the otaku fandom. The anime scene in Japan is saturated, and is a bubble that is about to burst. They know it’s time to turn to growing markets overseas, but you really have to wonder how effective this kind of legal action really is. Or are these people simply just clutching at straws
My two-cents.
August 19th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
I’m personally interested in finding out what happens (if anything at all) to the guy who was advised to ignored the letter, and the bunch who brought lawyers along.
Something like this might just catch on.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Thanks for the clear up. It the saddest event to happen here to all the anime fans and community at large. Eating the cake is small, hurting, destroying the anime industry, the young generation, their creativity is big. If ODEX is “successful”, there will be no future to the anime, gaming and CG industry in Singapore. And if ODEX is successful, will the “other watchers” not want a piece of the cake? The legal means use will make Singapore legal system a joke, maybe?
August 19th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
A lot of people have been blaming the FTA with US for everything, but thanks to it we do have a Fair Dealing clause now.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
XEDO parody, and a VERY VERY GOOD ONE at that:
http://sgcafe.com/showthread.php?p=2304819&posted=1#post2304819
August 19th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Thanks for the roundup of the ODEX issue
August 19th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Perfectly done, comrade. I couldn’t have put it better myself. Cos I haven’t done the necessary research yet.
My dad agrees with your GP teacher. This is also the first time he’s heard of Odex, in the papers. He encourages that I download more anime once we see the inevitable downfall of Odex, to rub a bit more salt in the wound.
Andy Ho’s done up an article about it himself. Very sensible stuff, froma very seasoned and sensible writer.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Free/Story/STIStory_148784.html
Odex’s downfall is inevitable. I see it coming over the horizon already. This has all been a bluff, a bluff that will eventually fail.
August 19th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
thanks alot for providing insight into the odex things. And i agree with feng. I would like to find out what happened to the guy who ignored the letter.
August 19th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Ak, what do you mean by bluff? They already have the IP addresses.
August 19th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Stupid ODEX is so stupid…
As usual, you singaporian just have to download on anonymous P2P, or other anonymous download if you want high quality.
After all, it’s where it all comes from originally.
That ODEX company is so stupid…i can’t understan why they’re doing that, they don’t understand that to survive they HAVE to adapt themselves to the modern world.
August 19th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
This may be a bluff in many possible ways.
None of those questions can be answered for certain until someone tries them out. Odex does not want that to happen because there is a good chance that the answers may turn out to be unfavourable to them. They want these questions to hang in the air so that they can just keep the money rolling in.
And that is their bluff.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Thanks darkmirage. :)
August 19th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
one other thing..
why are mostly bitorrent users targeted? Arent there other torrent sites?
August 19th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Banks
August 19th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
one other thing..
why are mostly bitorrent users targeted? Arent there other torrent sites?
Banks do you know what you are talking about?
August 19th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
There is still a chance of winning in this plan though.
Firstly, you’re assuming their main consumer base (apparently students and teenagers) to be mostly techno-savvy, browse forums and read your blog. A fair reverse assumption would be that the minority of the downloaders are making all the noise, and most of their consumer base don’t even download anime but watch it on TV and all that hype about anime downloading crackdown just pimped their company name onto the headlines of newspapers.
FREE ADVERTISING!
Who knows? We don’t have enough statistical proof to judge who’s the wiser but I doubt they are really that dumb to screw their main consumer base. So assuming that they have done their market research homework and are intelligent enough to not screw their main consumers, they’re probably just screwing around with the non-consumers for free publicity. In other words, YOU’RE INSIGNIFICANT LOL!
But assumptions are assumptions, the outcome of this “online-epic” scheme will be revealed by next year’s end, I think.
August 19th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
i did DL sum anime will i get caught too?huh?
August 19th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
i did DL sum anime will i get caught too?huh?
who is not scared?
August 19th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Nice article I have to admit. What was more significant though, was DM’s explanations (if true) on how the Japanese companies are involved in this grand scheme of affairs, as compared to that of tjhan.
I think the bigger issue here that DM has insinuated but has not yet caught on, would be the future consequences on those who have admitted to the downloading of fansubs (through payment of fines, and subsequent signing of the letter): What if criminal charges are brought on you over and above the civil suits leveled at you by Odex? I think this is more worrying, rather than the cost of settlement. Given a choice I’d rather pay more for an out-of-court settlement, rather than pay less (in the end), but sign the letter of indictment. The painfully obvious lack of intervention by the government/government-related agencies here seems rather interesting, or ominous, depending on how you view the issue.
Speaking of which, Odex’s claims that they need the money to pay for legal fees seem a little thin, especially when considering that they blindly included the threat of criminal sentences against those who decide to take the case to court. I mean, it doesn’t take a lawyer (or even a JC student) to figure out that the suit Odex is threatening here is civil, not criminal. I seriously wonder what sort of “legal advice” was consulted here. In fact, could a counter-suit be levelled against them for “misrepresentation of facts” in the legal letter?
Lastly, I’ll end with something a fellow undergraduate told me: “I just spent last semester studying business ethics, and immediately after completing that module I see a company doing the exact opposite.” I had no reply to that except “LOL”.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
LianYL:
Assuming they don’t care about the tech-savvy people, who the hell then is going to use their VOD service?
Let’s also assume that the majority of the consumers don’t give shit about downloading (which, considering Odex’s main target audience, is a pretty preposterous assumption), then by that same assumption they won’t interfere with the people who are making the noise either. On one hand, you have a thousand or two pissed-off “tech-savvy” fans as the minority making lots of noise, on the other hand you have an apathetic (and perhaps even empathetic) majority. In other words, no one is going to be on Odex’s side and the so-called minority will be the loudest mouth. That’s bad enough for Odex as it is.
Not to mention that any intelligent and discerning third party who reads about this story has a good chance of coming to the conclusion that Odex is just a greedy profiteer, as my GP teacher did. Free publicity or not, it’s not a good sign when people first hear about your company through a fiasco like this. It certainly doesn’t compel them to buy your products.
Hell, Odex will probably survive fine with all the blood money and MediaCorp TV license fees rolling in. But they have just driven themselves right out of the home video market and brought the entire community down with them with this poorly-conceived scheme.
But hey, as long as the net result turns a profit, it’s okay right? :)
August 19th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
well to sum up, this fiasco has come at completely the wrong time when i am about to have my exams.
Anyway, in the long run, odex does nt have much to profit from. They have juz turned the entire community against them, even casual anime viewers.
Oh well, I am sure at the end of the day, things will clear themselves up.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:06 pm
Dark Mirage, you deserve my (and my roommate’s) respect :)
Thanks for clearing things up.
I myself did not buy Odex’s CD/DVD/Shit and SWEAR that I will not buy it in the future.
Seriously, we should thank Odex for bringing Singapore anime community closer :)
August 19th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Screw you Odex, you suck, I have 11 anime torrents currently on my torrent come sue me you f-cktards. If Odex manages to win a case here, I’m going to move Finland forever.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
Well, they eventually will, but not without some completely idiotic commotion.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Hey darkmirage
In your opinion, what’s the likelihood each of us has of getting caught?
Do you think quantity of anime d/l is a big factor? Or is it just plain unfortunate that you get tracked and caught?
A few things though. Having the distribution rights does not make them the OWNERS of the anime right? Saying they represent the Jap companies is one thing. Proving it is another. Furthermore, if those Jap companies decide to remain quiet (as mentioned earlier) so as not to get bad PR, would not Odex be in some trouble?
Next, do Stephen Sing and Odex have consciences? They dont even issue warnings for crying out loud. I mean, this is not business ethnics. This is an issue of morals and principles. It is only fair to the downloader that he be warned. Unless if he persists with his wrongdoing, only then will there be MORE valid grounds to prosecute him.
Lastly, even if Odex wanted to witchhunt, should not they be going for the ppl who DO the actual fan subbing? We, in singapore, can be considered more of the audience. It’s ppl who do the subbing overseas, and then post it on Bittorrent for us to d/l. So what is the issue involved here? Is it the censorship and subtitling issue? or is it the issue of downloading the anime itself?
August 19th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
Before this whole Odex fiasco, people were already getting warnings from ISPs to stop downloading Hollywood movies, ne? But those were just bloody warnings, nothing about a fine or any of that shit. Anyway, haven’t fansubs helped the distribution of anime series a fair lot? I doubt Haruhi would have been adopted so quickly in the US if the reception in the fansubbing community weren’t so warm. Kimi ga nozomu eien (i think?) went by relatively quietly in the US arguably specifically because the studio requested the fans not to sub it.
Anyway, downloading fansubs is not necessarily illegal in Singapore.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Free/Story/STIStory_148784.html
molon labe, Odex.
August 20th, 2007 at 12:08 am
@aoi_sora9x : Lol reminds me of Basic Military Training.. we are all the recruits and ODEX is teh platoon sergeant XD
August 20th, 2007 at 12:08 am
I have this point to make. U see is Mr Sing for the betterment of anime in singapore? Ok fine if he is. But can ODEX be credited for anime’s growing popularity in Singapore over the last few years?
The answer is a straight forward NO.
August 20th, 2007 at 12:27 am
Therefore, in retrospect, all illegal downloads are AS IT IS, illegal downloads?
Meaning, what happens in the US (the Henry Jenkins’ case study) is not comparably “better” if it were to be translated to the situation in Singapore?
Then, what then?
Wouldn’t it be better if the counter suit proceeded so that once and for all, the Copyright Act can be tested to its fullest?
I don’t know. This whole situation has made me thought up of 2 opposing ideologies: on one hand, it’s in Odex’s favour since an illegal download is that, an illegal download. On the other hand, Odex’s handling of the clampdown has angered much of the fans, so much that an online death threat (now I will never believe Straits Times’ own journalists - except Andy Ho to a certain extent -, and The New Paper’s. Such vicious entities.) made him go into hiding.
Then you have the centrist. Basically, people who knew Stephen Sing and Peter Go first-hand, and are willing to make compromises with the two people to discuss on how best to make of the situation.
This entire saga has exact mirrors to a Gundam SEED/Code Geass storyline. Complete with character developments and shocking reveals.
So, what is the underlying bottomline for:
1. the general population,
2. the ones affected by the letters (the Odex-ed victims),
3. companies that deal with IP, and
4. the prospect of anime community in the future?
August 20th, 2007 at 1:09 am
It’s a simple thing, everyone seems to be so stuck on the idea that if they send the letter to u that’s it and u have to fight the case in court with regards to copyright laws. However, it has been proven in US court that IP Address does not equate to your home address (meaning that you might not be the one doing the actual downloading). Cases has also been tossed out whereby the alleged file that you are downloading is not the actual file. Rename a text document with a licensed anime file name and the report results where ODEX base their claims are the same. So in short, what Odex is claiming is crap.
August 20th, 2007 at 1:36 am
1. General population. I am sure most of s’poreans would have heard of this saga, and I am sure not many have great dispositions towards Odex. Come on , imagine no one has heard of your company. Suddenly it makes headlines for all the questionable reasons. What do you think their reaction will be? I mean going to the extent of fining a 9 YEAR OLD BOY?
2. Odexed victims: Well, the viable solution would be to seek legal advice 1st before proceeding. Should they choose to go court, it would be testing our copyright laws to the fullest i must say.
3.Companies that deal with IP: if you mean the ISP, they have been given the court order to reveal 1000 IP add each. Well Pacnet is appealing the case though.
4. Prospect of anime currently looks bleak. Well, since the crackdown, nt many will be d/l anime in s’pore anytime soon. however sites such as crunchyroll can let you VIEW anime online.
In short, all we can do now is hope and pray.
August 20th, 2007 at 2:07 am
I am rather amused, or maybe disgusted, that some people equate “anime fans” to “anime downloaders”, and proclaim Odex the enemy of all “anime fans”. Great way to assume the role of a stereotype on behalf of the entire community, shithead. In short, all we can do now is conjure new drama to entertain ourselves until Odex makes the next move so that another wave of stupidity floods the Internets.
Anyway, if a quality VoD system does get implemented, I don’t see why anyone with a rational mind would want to boycott it. It’s a legal pass of sorts.
Darkmirage: I’m speculating that it’s a an evil but clever scheme. What are you speculating? We should all commit speculation as it’s what fuels this drama.
August 20th, 2007 at 2:38 am
This is a Scanlation motto “If the publishers don’t do it right, then they don’t have the right to do it (exclusively).” This should be aply to fansubbers. If this “Odex” company’s product sucks, then yes Fansubber should bring quality entertainment to fans.
In Japanese law, it is legal to distribute work for no profit. The problem is that “Odex” have a monopoly in Singapore. It is acting a ruthless king picking of peasants. I am sure that if another company open up to compete against “Odex”, they will lose business even more and fansub will decrease. But only if the competition is much better than “Odex”.
Fansubber ethically will stop fansubbing a title if it licence in their region. But if the licenced work is worst than their own, they own it to the fan to continue their quailty works. Also, it is unethical for the fansubber to charge money, for any reason. Ture fan who fansub will never do that.
I download fansub, as I wrote before, because I can’t offord the DVDs and stuff. I am from Hong Kong, when ever I go back there, I buy the anime that I already downloaded. Real fans will do that. Also the VCDs and DVDs in Hong Kong is way cheaper than the US, and much less censoring. And always, the downloaded fansub doesn’t have the visula quality of the lisceneced DVDs and VCDs.
August 20th, 2007 at 2:39 am
One thing though. Companies support fansubs because fansubs are highly popular and good publicity for an anime. With that, Anime fans will buy products related to those items like in Sg, Comics Connection.
However, With Odex stopping Fansub downloads, IT will also mean that Odex is hindering the Japs effort in making their money. Remember, YOu do not have to sell anime discs to make money. You can sell dummy swords or shurikens etc. to earn those profits. One will not make a difference but thin about it. What if millions from many different countries want those products.
So… in short, Maybe even the japs will not help odex out.
August 20th, 2007 at 2:46 am
lol…pst that to the straits times review seciton…:D
im serious..
August 20th, 2007 at 5:54 am
so dl from youtube those kind of website is not illegal?
August 20th, 2007 at 6:31 am
It’s not so much whether is downloading anime being illegal. What’s the issue is what Odex is doing. “recycling” Odex goods might be all fine and dandy as an expression, but expressing death threats to their staff is a tad taking too far. Transparency is needed, but do they have to be transparent? As what DM said, Odex can easily survive without us with TV money, pouring vitriol on Odex alone is not going to work. What’s the intention and aims of all the anti-Odex movements? How they going to achieve it? Likewise, what’s Odex intending to achieve with all this? I believe they are as aware of us that they dont benefit with increased sales with the crackdown. So what are they in for?
August 20th, 2007 at 7:06 am
Banks: “Lastly, even if Odex wanted to witchhunt, should not they be going for the ppl who DO the actual fan subbing? We, in singapore, can be considered more of the audience. It’s ppl who do the subbing overseas, and then post it on Bittorrent for us to d/l. So what is the issue involved here? Is it the censorship and subtitling issue? or is it the issue of downloading the anime itself?”
That sort of mentality is assuming that because people fansub it, you HAVE to download it. When someone gets shot, the gun companies don’t get blamed. When someone gets hit by a drunk driver, the car companies and alcohol companies aren’t blamed. We are responsible for our own actions. If you download anime that ODEX has licensed, that’s your choice. The fansubbers didn’t make you do it- you chose to do it. Simple as that.
Fansub fan: “Fansubber ethically will stop fansubbing a title if it licence in their region. But if the licenced work is worst than their own, they own it to the fan to continue their quailty works. Also, it is unethical for the fansubber to charge money, for any reason. Ture fan who fansub will never do that.”
So, myself being a fansubber, you’re telling me that I’m ethically responsible for fansubbing an anime if you feel that your local company didn’t do a decent job on bringing it to you? And not only that, but I have to fansub it for you for free? Give me a break. My fansub group is mostly based in the US, and we drop titles that get licensed by R1 companies. We owe the fans nothing. This is a hobby for us, and certainly not one worth running into legal troubles over. If you’re not happy with the product given to you by the company, there are plenty of less ethical fansubbers who’ll continue to fansub it so you can download it. But even they are not ethically obligated to you or to the show. If all else fails, get the raws and learn Japanese.
Fansub fan: “Real fans will do that. Also the VCDs and DVDs in Hong Kong is way cheaper than the US, and much less censoring.”
The R1 DVDs are rarely censored nowadays. And those that are usually make it clear on the covers that they’re censored. For some higher profile titles, companies are also starting to release censored versions for the kiddies, and uncensored for the adults.
This post makes me sound like I’m completely negative here. :p I don’t think what ODEX is doing is right; it’s clear they’re out to make a profit and it also seems to me they’re using scare tactics to try and get people to stop downloading. This was a great and very informative article, DarkMirage. Thanks for posting it.
August 20th, 2007 at 9:11 am
I have seek the advice of my close friend in the police force. He is very very High up the food chain.
“Normally, the police will go after people who downloads porn. They know the IP address of the individual but not enough proof of the crime. So they get a court order and go to the house to search for proof. Like taking the PC away for investigation.” Why? Because IP address is not enough proof that there is a crime committed. What ODEX is trying to scare you into admitting that you have done some illegal downloading of Anime and ask for compensation. Well, to the the rest of the Anime fans, just ignore the old lamer letter, he is calling his bluff and up the stake. Just delete the Anime that you downloaded and reformat your hard disk, everything is gone. No proof and no evidence. Just a IP address what can he do. The government is not so stupid to issue (THREE THOUSAND) warrants to search everyone house because of one complain. Remember you are not terrorist. The Government are more interested in capturing terrorists, drugs lords, crime lords, and smuggling rings. The OLD Lamer, is scaring every individual because he know that the youngsters cannot have criminal records. Parents are frighten into submission because of the children career. Who cares? If you got guts, just change a new hard disk and up the stake by going to the police and report him 1) for extortion 2) For knowing a crime was committed and not reporting to police. Just think, change the hard disk and turn around and report him to the police. For three thousand police report filled against him, the police will halt his old lamer ass into police station for investigation. But at this junction, I am changing my hard disk and wait for the letter. As long as he demand monies from individual who didn’t admit and threaten lawsuit, it is called undue duress when no proof is submiited.
In the central police station, there are large monitors . The purpose is to monitors huge downloaders. Yet they are not taking down the downloaders, why are everyone is so worried? Called the old lamer bluff.
August 20th, 2007 at 10:00 am
Hm, we should make this Odex saga into an anime, it will get really high ratings :O
August 20th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Very Lucky 88,
you are the best! An IP address alone cant prove everything.
August 20th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
LianYL:
I have to agree that, at least in Singapore,
anime fans = anime downloaders.
I really don’t see how you can honestly argue otherwise.
Anyway you are contradicting yourself. You keep saying that anime downloaders (ala tech savvy bunch) are the minority and they are insignificant and what not. Do you honestly believe that? And if you do, who then, do you propose, is the main target audience of a VOD service?
Face it, your so-called majority of “anime fans” will continue to watch anime via YouTube and crunchyroll. Casual viewers don’t want to pay for anime. They rather watch silly flash animations if they can’t get anime for free. The only people who might have been willing to pay for a legitimate (and good) VOD service belong to the “minority” that has been screwed over.
Me? I guess I can settle for nico nico video if it really has to come to that, which I don’t think so.
August 20th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
n1 thanks for these pieces of useful information. Seriously, you are right to say that ODEX is permanently tainted(and hated by anime fans). By the way, there is a forum here saying that you had “spoken”. http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=178531
August 20th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
I have to agree with DM in regards to the overlapping role of being an anime fan in Singapore (which equates to being a downloader). The economics and accessibility issues here warrants such overlappings.
But in a sense, everybody here (or at least the majority) will agree on something: Odex’s public image has ruined beyond Iraqi ruin (may peace be upon them Iraqis, except mindless terrorists and sectarian violence inciters). It’d take a very long time for them to mend, but it’s better to close shop and set up new ones, anyways. Regardless of whether their VoD will be popular.
But an important lesson must be learned here if we are not going to let such an episode happen again. Fly away your “moral of the story” inputs here.
August 20th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
That’s an insightful article you got there. You raised many interesting points and it is good to hear that more and more neutral parties are spotting the loopholes of their actions.
It’s pretty clear that nobody’s on their side now. However, the thing about the govt keeping quiet about the whole fiasco until now is really strange.
August 20th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Check this out if you haven’t already…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lol_odex.jpg
August 20th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Surely a justified action would be respected and lauded but so far, ODEX is being lambasted left and right by the mass media, the anime community and even the neutral observers.
I would gladly pay for movie DVDs and music CDs that surely give me the quality over downloads and bootlegged copies, but I can’t say the same for locally distributed anime which incredibly reverses the trend.
This has to stop somewhere before Singapore becomes the laughing stock of the world, and this becomes the grand new profiting scheme after pyramid trading.
Again, I will not buy anything related to ODEX, just as I will not buy any magnetic beds.
August 20th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
this discussion somewhat provided respite from the ensuing fiasco out there.
the one thing i really can’t understand is that these odex ppl don’t have any goodwill; how do they expect their sales to grow while they give anime viewers a hard time?
Remember that most anime fans originally get acquainted to specific anime from media like torrent, irc etc.
In fact, distributors like odex should be cooperating with the fansubs and anime fans instead of making enemies outta them.
After the dust has settled, no one wins and everyone loses out.
August 20th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Hang on… this looks interesting…
And seems to be contradicting what Odex is claiming.
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/21/1312204
August 20th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
http://forums.playpark.net/showpost.php?p=1533422&postcount=562
someone made a comparison, odex vs fansub anime.
August 20th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Well as Chappy has show in his link the quality ODEX produce is really sux.. who would really want to pay money for such a shitty quality even if its original.